Talk:Ronnie Biggs

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ronnie Biggs article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Biography: Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

Brazil: Government and laws / History Low‑importance

	Brazil portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Brazil, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Brazil and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BrazilWikipedia:WikiProject BrazilTemplate:WikiProject BrazilBrazil articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Government and Laws of Brazil task force (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by the History of Brazil task force (assessed as Low-importance).

Crime and Criminal Biography High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

London Low‑importance

	London portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

The order of the Jack Mills coshing in the overall robbery

Re this bit;

(Renegade train driver brought along by the robbers) "Agate was unable to operate the main line diesel-electric locomotive because he had only driven shunting locomotives on the Southern Region. Therefore, the driver of the intercepted train, Jack Mills, was coshed with an iron bar and forced to move the engine and mail carriages forward to a nearby bridge over a roadway, which had been chosen as the unloading point."

My understanding of the order of those events is this - the train was waylaid, driver Jack Mills was immediately coshed when putting up resistance and pushed down (the railway embarkment etc) by the gang. It was then found that Agate couldn't move the stalled train at all, so the semi-conscious Mills was forced back onto the train to shunt it (to the robber's unloading spot) instead of Agate doing it.

i.e. Mills was coshed very soon after the robbery started, not after it was found that Agate then couldn't move the train.

That is always the version I have heard, so it should be easy to verify. e.g. https://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/police-forces/thames-valley-police/areas/au/about-us/thames-valley-police-museum/the-great-train-robbery/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.210.174 (talk) 16:30, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

News - Ronnie Biggs said to be in grave condition

Having contracted MRSA recently, Ronnie Biggs is said to be in extremely grave condition, and his death will likely occur soon. This was reported by his lawyers and has been corroborated by Biggs's son.

Aside from the word of his lawyers and his son, is there any actual evidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.114.191 (talk) 20:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Carnival in Rio

"In 1991, Biggs sang vocals for the song "Carnival In Rio (Punk Was)" by German punk band Die Toten Hosen."

It was not Only the song "Carnival in Rio (Punk was)"! It was a Single wit 3 Songs with Ronald Biggs & Die Toten Hosen. The Songs was "Carnival in Rio (Punk Was), "No one is Innocent" & "Police on my back" ! In all 3 Songs sang Biggs the Vocals together with the Toten Hosen.

Australia

When I was a kid, the Biggs's moved into my street (having fled from England as it turned out) to Hibiscus Road, in the Melbourne suburb of North Blackburn. I used to play with his kids. They used the assumed name of Cook. One day the street was full of cops, Ronnie had left (the day before I think) and then we learned who Mr. Cook really was..... --Commking 06:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Haha. Why did Ronnie go back to the UK in 2001? There was no chance of a pardon. Was he sick of life in Brazil, or did The Sun set him up? R o gerthat ^Talk 08:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He came back for the free health care - its a well known fact!

His lawyers and son are now claiming he's caught MRSA from the NHS- are they with Claims Direct? Cant' really understand why he's got a Wikipedia entry 79.77.114.191 (talk) 22:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)Jack Mills79.77.114.191 (talk) 22:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with File:God Save Ronald Biggs.jpg

The image File:God Save Ronald Biggs.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --20:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Place in the gang pecking-order

When he escaped abroad, supposedly with his equal share of the haul, the other gang-members complained that he had only been the tea-boy on the job, and did not deserve his fame. 86.139.88.137 (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Many don't think he warrants a Wikipedia entry either:) 79.77.114.191 (talk) 22:00, 9 August 2009

(UTC)JackMills79.77.114.191 (talk) 22:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.114.191 (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

79.77.114.191 said; "Many don't think he warrants a Wikipedia entry either."

I can understand that point of view, but I don't think the article glamorises Ronnie Biggs or makes him out to be some sort of hero. In any case, there's a wikipedia article for the Kray twins as well and they were considerably worse.

Meltingpot (talk) 13:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: You're on your own mate. If Gibbs would have a million of his own on making childrens TV, I do not see why that money should be given to other greedy gits. If he respected pecking orders, he would not have gone AWOL. He would be given a list on what Brazilian women he would be allowed to get close with. Later in life, he would be treated as a mere propertah of the Brazillian State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.69.142 (talk) 22:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Story total bullshit and incredibly naive!

> Scotland Yard detectives arrived soon afterwards, but Biggs could not be extradited because the United Kingdom did not benefit from reciprocity of extradition to Brazil <

I call bullshit on this. Mossad rendered Eichmann from South America, wrapped in a big carpet and he got hanged, even though he wasn't even a jew, but a german. Britain went to war against South America, with aircraft carrier and nuclear submarine, over a snow-covered bucnh of tiny islands called Falkland/Malvinas and literally hundreds of soldiers were killed in battle there, even though that land had zero importance.

Indeed if such action in South America was worth the pain for Britain just to make Thatcher more popular, MI6 should have also re-located Biggs from Brazil to London so that the loop could be placed over his neck, demonstrating the UK govt's power. If they didn't, that means Biggs or his supporters knew something extraordinarily nasty with proof, something they probably found out during the train robbery. Say they found a letter detailing that the queen is a sadist lesbian dominatrix in her spare time or that Churchill had an illegitimate child with a negro maid, or he was a massive tax evader and addictive gambler, or so.

Apprehending Biggs would result in such gravest damaging info hitting the press, that's why they let him live free in Brazil. That is the only logical explanation. No sane person can think it would be difficult or troublesome for the nuclear power Britain get Biggs back on home soil from the brazilian banana republic. Remember, a state's first and foremost duty is to punish crimes!

If Britain felt like avoiding scandal, they could ask a close ally to extraordinarily render Biggs. Remember, pucky little Israel rendered german citizen Eichmann from Brazil and hanged him with near-zero protest during the same timeframe. They could have delivered Biggs to Britain as well, in exchange for some military aid.

Wikipedia is ruining its own reputation by repeating govt pro-passivity propaganda, which clearly fails the Occam razor test. 91.82.39.198 (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for the Eichman case, the Argentines were on good level with Israel's point of view. Argentina submitted a complaint to the UN Security Council that appears to have been delibirately weak. The Council concluded that Israel should reconsidder what violations it had done to Argentina's integrity, and give Eichmann a civilised trial. The critisism towards Israel must not be viewed as condoning Eichmanns disgusting acts, so yebutnobut. May I join the Libdem party?--88.89.69.142 (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This pure nonsense! There's no BS ...Brazil has an extradition agreement with England, but Biggs could not be extradited simply because he had a Brazilian son. This was the only reason and I remember the details well, as I lived in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil at that time. I don't have time to for research, but I was there and remember well what I read on the news.

This conspiracy theory is pathetic and the comment about Brazil being a Banana Republic, quite offensive. British intelligence (if you really can call them that) even took Biggs back to England in the early 90's or late 80's (that I remember well) and had to return him as his capture led to a diplomatic incident between England and Brazil (some idiots think England and the US rule the world, but there's such thing as borders, international law and sovereignty). 99.21.67.69 (talk) 04:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Probably factual error

>at age 18 he joined the RAF but was dishonorably discharged in 1949 for desertion, serving for only two years<

I am pretty sure he did not defect! Desertion (unilaterally trying to escape from military service) results in court-martial and you get to face the musketry. Military is not a joke, it's a serious institution. Even "absent without leave" (e.g. getting really drunk and simply forgetting to return to the base in time) results in a hard to forget prison stay, many months of no barracks leave, years of reduced pay and total loss of hope for any significant future rank progress.

If the military simply discharged deserters, soon there would be nobody left in the military! That's why they shoot defectors in plain view of the entire unit, because discipline must be kept. Russian troops stationed in Hungary were shooting their defectors even in 1986, on the spot, at the railways station, in plain view of many hungarian civilians!

Wikipedia, please check what ridiculous info gets into your articles and purge them to keep credibility! 91.82.39.198 (talk) 20:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Britain had mandatory service (officially) until just before 1961. Even though the obligation seemed less real in the mid 50s (some would-be conscripts still think it was over as they never were drafted), here we are on about 1947. If I was a military dude in 1949, I would think that business owners would (initialy) like to know of service records at job interviews. They would know you have been there. Dishonourable discharge may have been more punishing than serving the rest of your time in the Armed Forces. I would more readily prefer to be discharged in a normal fashion. Military track records are sparse on less serious offences (such as observing bad table manners), and the punishent that came afterwards. I would expect there be no mention of an AWOL, except that it qualified for a dishonourable discharge.--88.89.69.142 (talk) 22:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where did Ronnie have plastic surgery and get his false papers from, Paris or Helsinki ?

Wikipedia article "Great Train Robbery (1963)" Heading: "Aftermath" "Biggs fled to Paris, where he acquired new identity papers and underwent plastic surgery."

Wikipedia article "Ronnie Biggs" Heading: "Great Train Robbery" He fled to Helsinki, where he acquired new identity papers and underwent plastic surgery.

41.119.183.44 (talk) 09:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incompetent or failed?

In 1981, Biggs was kidnapped and smuggled into Barbados. The kidnappers hoped to collect a reward from the British police but Barbados had no extradition treaty with the United Kingdom and Biggs was sent back to Brazil.[6] In February 2006, Channel 4 aired a documentary featuring dramatisations of the attempted kidnap and interviews with John Miller, the ex-British Army soldier who carried it out. The team was headed by security consultant Patrick King. In the documentary, King claimed that the kidnapping may have in fact been a deniable operation.[7]

This seems rather strange. What person with the competence to kidnap some from Brazil and smuggle them into Barbados is going to make the mistake of smuggling them into somewhere where there's no hope of extraditing them anyway? This seems even less likely if it was some sort of MI6 operation. Has it been suggested they were planning to take him somewhere else but failed? Nil Einne (talk) 20:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have noted an error in this article. The intent was to smuggle Biggs to London, however the boat used to smuggle Biggs had mechanical problems off Barbados. The Barbados Coast Guard towed a disabled boat and crew into port in Oistins Barbados, only to discover a restrain individual who turned out to be Biggs. This is how Biggs ended up in a country that had now extradition treaty with England. By the way, the British fully expected that their former colony Barbados would have turned Biggs over to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.251.148.254 (talk) 23:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC) >[reply]

I don't know where this curious tale comes from; Ronnie Biggs was not "kidnapped" by Commandoes or Ninjas or anyone... he was short of money so his old friends back in London arranged a phoney "kidnapping" in order to create a news story to sell. The fake kidnappers (and Mr Biggs himself) had everything worked out and knew he was safe from extradition. The "kidnappers" eventually revealed themselves, going so far as to pose for a picture of them and Ronnie Biggs. Interestingly, they were all wearing t-shirts with the name "The Golden Lion" on them (the name of the Fulham pub run by one of them at the time). The picture appeared on the front page of the now defunct London Evening Standard. They played Jack Slipper and Scotland Yard like a fiddle with that caper, the front page photo of them all lined up and grinning from ear to ear was just adding insult to injury.Tarquin Q. Zanzibar (talk) 17:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re quote "Mills never fully recovered from his injuries sustained during the robbery"

Where's the facts to back up that statement??

Do you know how many stitches he had??. Was he in intensive care for the "beating"?? He died of Leukaemia which the article states was un-related. So where's the facts backing up the statement "Mills never fully recovered from his injuries sustained during the robbery" ???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.236.24 (talk) 06:08, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They said it on the recent drama. They must have evidence. They said he had something wrong with his brain after the hit. It was a metal bar... 86.152.142.187 (talk) 21:55, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reader feedback: a few more pictures please

2.1.74.212 posted this comment on 20 December 2013 (view all feedback).

a few more pictures please

There seems to be a problem that there are no more pictures on wikimeda commons. I agree that the infobox could do with a portrait. Any way of getting more pictures?

BinarySquareRoot (talk) 09:03, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 external links on Ronnie Biggs. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 03:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Excuses are lame and really don't belong to WP.

> In 1970, when Biggs arrived in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil did not have an extradition treaty with the United Kingdom

The same was true for the zionist entity as well. Yet, Eichmann was delivered from Brasilia to Haifa and hanged. It is obvious that Biggs was protected from very high positions within the british establishment, else the MI / SAS would have rendered him from Brasilia extraordinarily. 82.131.238.200 (talk) 18:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Ronnie Biggs. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/news/Biggs-family-vow-fight/article-1130691-detail/article.html
Corrected formatting/usage for http://unkilo.blogspot.com/2009/03/pil-trafa-y-ronald-biggs-i-solo-para.html
Corrected formatting/usage for http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=66484&pt=n
Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Great-Train-Robber-Ronnie-Biggs-In-Hospital-With-Pneumonia-From-Cell-At-Belmarsh-Prison/Article/200902215222794?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15222794_Great_Train_Robber_Ronnie_Biggs_In_Hospital_With_Pneumonia_From_Cell_At_Belmarsh_Prison
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050905080444/http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/biggs/index.html?sect=18 to http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/biggs/index.html?sect=18

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]