Talk:Marie Laveau

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hthrxlynn. Peer reviewers: Amechifrank.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:22, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

It is illegal to "draw" XXX on Madame Laveau's tomb. This practice has no base in the voodoo religion and was something that was started by tourists. People who deface the tomb can face a large fine and even jail time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.218.235 (talk) 08:29, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Marie was not a mulatto; her mother was mulatto. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.140.173.130 (talk) 03:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

August 2, 2006 It is not true that the ritual at the Widow Paris tomb is a recent practice introduced by former cemetery caretaker Buddy Ansbacher. In the late 1930s fieldworkers from the WPA Federal Writers’ Project interviewed elderly New Orleanians (born in the 1850s and 1860s) who remembered that Laveau devotees began making cross marks and leaving offerings at the Widow Paris tomb, and at a wall vault in St. Louis Cemetery No. 2, in the 1880s, shortly after Marie Laveau died. The fieldworkers also interviewed Ayola Cruz, caretaker of the St. Louis Cemeteries since the 1920s, who reported that people “come almost daily to make offerings to Marie’s spirit. They make crosses with red brick, charcoal, and sharp rocks.” Mr. Cruz, acting under the orders of archdiocesan authorities, immediately removed the markings, but the interviewer noted that “close observation discloses scratched crosses under the fresh whitewash.” There were also occasional newspaper stories about the practice in the 1920s and ‘30s (“Tribute of Flowers and Prayers for City's Unforgotten Dead,” New Orleans Morning Tribune, November 2, 1928, p. 1, col. 4-5; “Voodoo Faithful Put Magic Marks on Great Queen's Grave,” New Orleans Item, June 22, 1936, p. 14; “Voodoo Queen's Grave,” New Orleans States, September 2, 1937, flysheet p. 2).

The practice of drawing cross-marks is, in fact, rooted in African and Haitian tradition. In the religion of the Kongo people, life is represented as a sacred cosmogram, a cross within a circle. The intersection of the two crossed lines symbolizes the point of concentrated power where the realm of the living intersects with the realm of the spirits and the ancestors. The African cosmogram became conflated with the Christian cross in the Afro-Catholic religions of the New World, and this symbol, sometimes an X, sometimes an upright cross, is seen throughout the Americas. In Haiti the practice is called kwasiyen, meaning to sign with a cross, and is used to establish contact with the lwa [Vodou deities] and the dead. It is hoped that tour guides will be able to educate the public about the meaning of the ritual at Marie Laveau’s tomb (officially known as the Glapion Tomb) while explaining that it is no longer done because of the damage it causes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longca (talk • contribs) 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

However, very few of the markings and offerings at the Glapion Tomb are left by actual voudou practioners; most are left by tourists who know nothing about the practice of Afro-Catholic spirituality.

Birth record info

http://appl003.lsu.edu/unv002.nsf/PressReleases/PR1721 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.153.29.60 (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Please sign!!!! ¡ ¿ [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]]

I do not advocate an article about this; but, I do think that it should be mentioned someplace. Possibly this could be researched by others.

"Bloody Mary" Mary Millan claims to be a voodoo priestess, as well as ancestry by Robert the Bruce, Robert Bruce, Bloody Mary, Marie Laveau,...

She claims frequent communication w/ Marie Laveau{'s ghost}.

I do wonder whether any of this can be certified.

Thank You.

< http://bloodymarystours.com/biography.html >;

< http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:7YGQ2RnihLgJ:bloodymarystours.com/biography.html+site:bloodymarystours.com+%22priestess%22+%22%22+%22%22+%22%22&hl=en&gl=as&ct=clnk&cd=1 >.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 09:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Bloody Mary is a tour guide who also claims to be a wiccan witch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbentley (talk • contribs) 22:36, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

"Bloody Mary" is generally considered a fraud by the authentic Voodoo Community (both in and outside of New Orleans). There is no evidence of her backstory being factual, nor that she has had any authentic education/training in the Voodoo Religion. Her business plays upon common Voodoo stereotypes, exploiting the culture to encourage tourists & TV shows to part with their money. Her current shop on Rampart St. in New Orleans is the former location of The New Orleans Voodoo Temple - still run at the new location by a legitimate Voodoo Mambo (aka "Priestess"), Miriam Chamani. The apartment above the storefront is also the site of a notorious murder that "Bloody Mary" exploits as part of her tours - causing much disrespect to friends & acquaintances of the deceased. Kamishiro (talk) 15:34, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Song "Marie Voodoo Laveau"

Heard this song the other day with "..Marie voodoo Laveau.." in the chorus , sounded like it was from the '70s (I believe it was on cable radio). Soulful, not country. I checked on iTunes and couldn't find anything that sounded quite like it. Any guesses? I'm not suggesting it be added to the Music section here, which seems rather long and somewhat tangental trivia.--Justfred 06:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Answered my own question. Redbone, "The witch queen of New Orleans", 1971. Already referenced on the page.--Justfred 06:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sgsmith, nola (talk) 20:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"Someone with powers" is invoked below, and that is deliciously fitting for the Marie Laveau wiki discussion. In future weeks i will be researching in order to add to the Marie Laveau > music sub heading, because i believe it is missing some important earlier recordings. Dr. John, for example, one of my musical heros, did add a great deal of creative influence to the song, but imho, did not author it. I believe we can call the origins of the Dr. John song "traditional," not attributable to a single author. Researching Marie Laveau is very difficult because of the volume of lore and mystery around her subject, but perhaps i'll be able to at least add to the discography. -sgsmith, New Orleans. 6-21-08 @1455. Sgsmith, nola (talk) 20:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, adding such material is usually considered trivia and shouldn't be added without proper referencing. I'd be a very happy to see more added to the main body of the article, with proper referencing. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

shouldn't the songs listed be marked as cover versions when they are instead of presented as each being a different song by each artist? The Dr. Hook song is a cover of the Bobby Bare song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.191.209 (talk) 03:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Marie did not play in the Wizard of Oz, and she was never married to someone named Justin Samford. I don't know if I am allowed to just delete these lines or not, so someone with powers, please do.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doubleas2380 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Role in Computer Game

For the sake of completeness regarding the list of mentions in "modern fiction", Marie Laveau (as well as Voodoo and New Orleans) plays an important role in the 1993 computer game "Gabriel Knight: Sins of the fathers" by Sierra. This is how I heard of her. You can even "visit" her tomb in the game. 217.87.4.215 (talk) 19:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Computer games are not part of modern fiction, they are games. Wildhartlivie (talk) 06:43, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Video games are part of modern culture though. It should be included. Only a moron rejects the important contribution of video games in modern culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.10.243 (talk) 04:00, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Common Law Marriage?

Re: "She took a lover, Christophe (Louis Christophe Dumesnil de) Glapion, with whom she lived in a common-law marriage until his death in 1835."

There is no common law marriage in Louisiana, and as far as I know, there never has been. Louisiana has wacky laws...people say it's the "Napoleonic Code" but a recent law graduate told me that's a common misconception and that Louisiana follows a French code rather than an English one (the rest of the US follows English, from what I understand). Should this sentence be rephrased to reflect accuracy? Is there another word for a partnership in which the couple considers themselves informally married? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.38.21.34 (talk) 05:25, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

In the state of Louisiana a common law marriage is seven years. As a lifelong resident I'm sure. I don't know what you are speaking of. I would guess you are not from the parts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.143.87 (talk) 03:15, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

No, there has never been common law marriage in Louisiana. It explicitly says so in Common-law_marriage_in_the_United_States, the relevant wikipedia article, and I have no reason to doubt it, since Louisiana civil law isn't based on English common law. See also http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/state-laws-common-law-marriage.html Tarchon (talk) 00:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The relationship between Marie Laveau & Christophe Glapion was not a marriage of any kind, it was plaçage - a very common occurrence in New Orleans at that time. Glapion did not live with her, Marie lived & worked most of her adult life at the same address; 1020-1022 St. Ann St. in New Orleans Vieux Carré (literally, "The Old Quarter", more commonly called The French Quarter). The building there now is a reproduction of the original Creole Cottage (removed in 1903, though the foundation was reused). Her only marriage was to Jacques Paris, hence the reason her alleged tomb in St. Louis Cemetery #1 is inscribed as, "Famille de Vve Paris née Laveau" (Family of the Widow Paris, born Laveau) Kamishiro (talk) 16:17, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

References

article not scholarly in tone and content -> rewrite/source?

The article is riddled with phrases like:

• was said
• claimed
• believe/believed
• reportedly
• suggested
• supposed
• may be
• (some) assert

The associated text is things we don't know. Even for some things supported by source(s), the sources themselves use words like the above. The number of existing inline annotations is staggering. This article needs to be redrafted by a skilled writer and historian, keeping or stating only what can be verified by valid sources like birth and death certificates, Louisiana/New Orleans historical records, and accounts of historians or writers from that time.Sbalfour (talk) 21:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

@Sbalfour Agreed. 2601:205:8300:E670:747B:A205:B9A1:5B42 (talk) 01:11, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Intellectual history and the history of ideas

Hegel was a contemporary of Laveau, and if anybody who wasn't quite famous had a song, a comic book, or a computer game about Hegel, that might not be germane, because that might not have much to do with Hegel's standing in intellectual history. For better and for worse, Laveau belongs to the history of ideas, in which rumors, jokes, and fantasies mix with an amount—sometimes a small amount—of hard data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Francvs (talk • contribs) 20:32, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Husband's Name

Jacques and Santiago are variants of the same name. Santiago is Spanish for Saint Jacques basically. Tarchon (talk) 00:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Death of Jacques Paris

Is there any evidence that Jacques Paris was murdered by Delphine Lalaurie in real life and not just American Horror Story? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.16.163.254 (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Changing of Marie Laveau's picture

i think the picture of Marie Laveau should be changed to suit her actual appearance. The picture for her now is portraying Marie Laveau as light skinned woman when her heritage really would give her dark skin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.212.91 (talk) 09:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with this. As someone who stopped by the page to learn about the subject, the picture initially threw me off. Even for a pretty un-fact-filled page, the picture is misleading and directly contrasts the contents of the text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.174.91.15 (talk) 19:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

She was of mixed racial/ethnic ancestry, and that is a picture with licensing that we are able to use. If you are able to provide another picture that fits copyright policy, then feel free to add it. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:32, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree also. As far as her complexion, because she was mixed doesn't always present itself. Some mixed raced people are dark as unmixed, then you have some black people unmixed that ARE very light, which may be from a relative from way back, perhaps a white master over a slave, or maybe a mutual consensual relationship. No one knows, now I guess. Anyway there are too many images on the internet claiming to be her yet the images look nothing like one another and I certainly don't know what she looked like either so cannot choose an image. Perhaps there is a good physical description of her somewhere? I don't know, hopefully having more people on this, will help somehow like it does in other articles? TIA IrishLas (talk) 17:31, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

The portrait should be removed. It is neither of Laveau, nor was it completed during her lifetime. Circulating images like this is irresponsible and gives rise to confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.210.138.98 (talk) 13:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

New subsections???

Additional subsections regarding 1) widely held beliefs and 2) myths surrounding Marie Laveau should be made in order to provide a more comprehensive understanding of her life. Black history in general lacks verifiability, due in part to the institutions of the past and the wide spread illiteracy in black communities: there was no one to record and preserve history, especially when it came to biographical histories. Black history was often passed from generation to generation. For this reason I think that adding these subsections would be beneficial to public knowledge. The information in these subsections should be held to certain standards, such as:

• come from multiple reliable sources, ie. encyclopedia, newspaper archives from the era, biographies, etc.
• is widely held belief
• provide context on why it is debatable as fact
• put forth in away that can not be misconstrued as fact
• etc.

Marie Laveau's life is shrouded in mystery, which in part, contributes to her historical importance, and as such should be included in the article. Ms.Soperfec (talk) 22:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Artistic legacy and popular culture

Opening discussion on whether to remove pop culture, and just leave the Artistic legacy. None of the popular cultural items in this section have citations. I propose removing everything except the one item (Renee Stout's work on Laveau) which is cited. It seems like this has become a section for trivial mentions of Laveau that really have little to do with her important life and work. Things can be added back if references can be found for the unsourced material. Netherzone (talk) 16:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I will be working on this article for a class project over the next couple of weeks. I will work on identifying sources for items including in this section. --Ms.Soperfec (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:03, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: ARH 371_The TransAtlantic_Cross-Cultural Representations

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 2 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Uncg24 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Uncg24 (talk) 21:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Marie Salopé

I can find absolutely no corroboration that such a person ever existed. Furthermore, "salope" in French means "slut," so the name is highly suspect. In English the name would be something like Mary Slutty. Until someone can provide a source that definitively establishes her existence, I'm going to remove the parenthetical reference to her and Sanité Dédé, another figure of dubious authenticity (there's a picture online purported to be her grave, but it's too blurry to read, other than that, no real biographical info). Mpaniello (talk) 07:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead an added this back in. Marie Saloppé is in the provided source, and she and Dédé are in other sources about Laveau dating back at least to the WPA oral histories. That doesn't mean they aren't apocryphal, but they are attested. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 13:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

What source, exactly? Could you please point me to the correct item in the Sources section? Attested by whom, specifically? Mpaniello (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I've fixed the given Encyclopedia Britannica ref to target the info about Marie Saloppé and added info about the so-called Vodou "queens" and "doctors", or priestesses and priests, sourced to the article by Richard Brent Turner, "The Haiti-New Orleans Vodou Connection: Zora Neale Hurston as Initiate Observer" in the Journal of Haitian Studies. Carlstak (talk) 16:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yep, just got the notification. Thank you! Mpaniello (talk) 16:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

My pleasure. Carlstak (talk) 16:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

She was born in the Spanish Empire and died in the Kingdom of France

At this time, the United States did not exist as such.

Marie Laveau

• Born: September 10, 1801. New Orleans, Provincia de La Lusiana, Spanish Empire.
• Died: June 15, 1881, New Orleans, Louisiana, Kingdom of France.

95.20.52.38 (talk) 18:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

No. By September 1801, New Orleans was under Spanish administration, but the territory had been restored to the French First Republic by the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso (1800) and the Treaty of Aranjuez (1801). (France didn't take formal control until Pierre-Clément de Laussat arrived in March 1803.) The Sale of Louisiana happened shortly thereafter and by year-end the territory was in U.S. hands. By 1812, Louisiana was admitted as a state. In 1861, the state seceded to join the Confederacy; after the Civil War, in July 1868, the state was readmitted to the Union. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 19:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Whoa, I missed that part, lol! There also hadn't been a Kingdom of France since 1848. By 1881 it was (again) a republic, though it had also had its second imperial period (under Napoleon III) between 1852 and 1870. Mpaniello (talk) 19:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

What is clear is that Marie Laveau was not born in the United States, so she was not a native of United States.--95.20.52.38 (talk) 19:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)