Jump to content

Talk:Jimmie Rodgers

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Requested move 23 June 2022

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. The country artist seems to be the primary topic for the spelling "Jimmie Rodgers" given the evidence. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 01:36, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmie Rodgers (country singer) → Jimmie Rodgers – I consider that this page should be moved to "Jimmie Rodgers" (as also noted by other people on its talk page). Currently, "Jimmie Rodgers" redirects to "James Rodgers", which is in of itself a disambiguation page. There are but two people with the exact spelling "Jimmie Rodgers": the original Jimmie Rodgers, whose biography is now contained under the title "Jimmie Rodgers (country singer)" and then "Jimmie Rodgers (pop singer)", who archived fame in the late 1950s. "Jimmie Rodgers (country singer)" currently has on top of the entry a "not to be confused with" notice that links to the pop singer. Now, since old Jimmie Rodgers is considered the "father of country music" and he is often cited as such by major publications and the Country Music Hall of Fame (1, 2, 3) it would be more relevant to link the entry directly to him, with the link on his article offering the link to the pop singer. I'm more than positive that most of the readers are searching for the country singer due to his major fame and influence (not putting down the pop singer, who had a briefer, but also remarkable career). I think to most readers it is frustrating to land on the page "James Rodgers" and to have to look for the singer among multiple names with radically different spellings. It is not even easy for the people who happen to be looking for the pop singer. GDuwenHoller! 20:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On a follow-up comment, the country singer gets more than double the views on a daily average than the pop singer (1, 2)--GDuwenHoller! 21:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Sinopecynic (talk) 21:07, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suport. Can't put it better than you have. Why does this always happen to me (Because) 07:03, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

[edit]
Passed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Jimmie Rodgers/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BennyOnTheLoose (talk · contribs) 11:52, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]


GA review
(see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar):
    b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references):
    b (citations to reliable sources):
    c (OR):
    d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects):
    b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):
    b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

Overall:
Pass/Fail:

· · ·

Happy to be challenged on any of my review comments. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:52, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note - it's a bit more difficult to get hold of some of the book sources than I expected; please give me a few days as I should be able to get hold of them early next week. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:50, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check

  • I reviewed the six matches of 20% or more found using Earwig's Copyvio Detector. No issues, Some attributed quotes, some titles, some phrases acceptable per WP:LIMITED, and what looks like a copy from Wikipedia to ghanafuo.com.

Images and audio

  • Images all have a PD rationale. They are relevant, positioning and captions are fine. Optionally, ALT text could be added (MOS:ALT)
  • I think the caption "A song by the Kipsigis people about Jimmie Rodgers, who learned of him through recordings brought by Christian missionaries, recorded by ethnomusicologist Hugh Tracey" could be better phrased.
  • I'm not sure that the rationales for "File:Waiting for a Train by Jimmie Rodgers.ogg" and 2File:T.B.Blues - Jimmie Rodgers.ogg" are strong enough to justify them being used. Happy to discuss. The other audio rationales all seem suitable for fair use.
Alts added, let me know if something is wrong/missing. Caption shortened, people can go to the standalone article of "Chimirocha" to find out.
About the rationales for "Waiting for a Train" and "T.B. Blues", I think there's enough relevance to the inclusion of both in the article. I expanded the rationale of "Waiting for a Train" to explain that the song became a success during the Great Depression. It was his best-selling record: we got the sales figure of the time, as well as its relevance during that period. As for "T.B. Blues", we discuss at length Rodgers suffering of the disease and him asking a former inmate to help him write the song after his usual collaborator refused. It was obviously very important for Rodgers (and as one of the first songs of him I've heard, I'd say it pretty much captures the listener/reader of the article finding out that the singer actually succumbed to the disease.--GDuwenHoller! 18:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems a fair argument. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

  • I have no concerns about the reliability or suitablility of the sources used.
  • I'm not sure about "Alamhof" being listed as an author.
  • Some of the page numbers are in the format "p. 91, 92." while others are in the format "p. 27-29.". Where a page rage is given, it should use a dash (p. 27-29.) rather than a hyphen (p. 233-236.). Where it's a page range, pp rather than p should be used in the reference. These aren't blockers to GA status, but you could optionally fix them.
  • "author=Barker, Hugh; Taylor, Yuval" - per Template:Cite book, the author parameter should never hold the names of more than one author.
"Alamhof" replaced by an original news piece from the time. Corrections of the footnotes and sources completed.--GDuwenHoller! 18:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

  • Consider wikilinking panhandling to begging; I don't know how widely the term is understood
  • Rodgers attended school irregularly during his early childhood; he did not attend at all for a time following the death of his mother. After the family moved to Lowndes County, Mississippi, he and his brother went to school in the town of Artesia. Rodgers and his brother often arrived late to or missed school altogether as a result of road conditions and other distractions. Rodgers often missed classes during the winter due to his tendency to suffer from respiratory issues. is missing a citation.
  • Spot check on When his father returned to work for the railroad, Rodgers again rarely went to school. - no issues.
  • I think NO&NE should be in parentheses after "New Orleans and Northeastern Railroad" but as the abbreviation appears so close to the full name, consider this optional.
Citation added, other points also assessed.--GDuwenHoller! 18:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Music career

  • The disease affected his ability to perform his job - didn't he have multiple jobs? So maybe reword. (Using "work" instead of "job"?)
  • In Washington, D.C., Rodgers worked a stint for the station WTTF with the backing of the "Jimmie Rodgers' Southeners", while he continued to make records for the label. He used the band for his recordings of "In the Jailhouse Now" and "The Brakeman's Blues", among others. is missing a citation
  • Spot check on His doctor ordered an x-ray—an uncommon procedure at the time—and determined that the singer was suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, which affected his lungs. Cavities were found on the top of both lungs, while the bottom of his right lung showed pleurisy. - no issues.
  • Spot check on he collapsed during a show in Lufkin and was placed in an oxygen tent. - no issues.
Citation added. Anything to comment on the line about the X-rays?--GDuwenHoller! 18:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ooops. Added "no issues". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Style and image

  • Spot check on Rodgers never pointed to any specific reason as to why he decided to learn to play the guitar. - isn't it more that we don't have a record about him saying why, not that he didn't? Could probably be rephrased. (I'm using the 1979 edition of Porterfield, so let me know if there's suitable supporting text for the current article text in the later edition.)
  • spot check on Instead of the 3/4 time present in traditional alpine folk music, Rodgers' yodel featured a 4/4 time - source has "Tyrolean music, where 3/4 time is quite common"; to me "3/4 time present" is a stronger statement
I'll just leave it to his earliest memory of playing the guitar. Porterfield argues that not much is known about his formative process rather than his family being "musical" and that memory he recalled. I'd like to cite the original interview, but I couldn't find it yet. Other than that, I agree that "present" is fitting regarding the use of the time in tyrolean music.--GDuwenHoller! 18:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

  • Looks good.

Legacy

  • There are duplicate links for Ernest Tubb and Hank Snow. (see WP:DUPLINKS)
  • Spot check on Rodgers is considered the Father of Country Music both sources cited use the phrase, and two Halls of Fame seems suitable support. (I see the phrase in other relaible sources too.)
  • Spot check on his "undying" influence on multiple generations of musicians - source mentions "inspired countless other musicians" and "Thousands of country musicians were inspired..." but doesn't explicity state this was across multiple generations.
  • Rolling Stone staff (2017). "100 Greatest Country Artists of All Time". Rolling Stone. Retrieved March 6, 2023 the section on Rodgers was written by Jonathan Bernstein; optionally you could cite it as something like "100 Greatest Country Artists of All Time: 11: Jimmie Rodgers" and credit Bernstein.
  • Allmusic has described - I think this comment should be attribute to the author, e.g. "David Vinopal of Allmusic described"
  • Spot check on influenced by Rodgers... Bob Dylan - no issues.
  • Betts, Stephen (September 15, 2019). "Flashback: Jimmie Rodgers Becomes the 'Father of Country Music'". Retrieved March 6, 2023. - missing the publication title.
  • The tribe sang about Rodgers in a traditional song recorded in 1950 by ethnomusicologist Hugh Tracey who later named it "Chemirocha III". - "Chemirocha II" is mentuoned in a caption in the source, but isnt the song just called "Chemirocha"? Optionally, you could add where that name derives from - it wasn't obvious to me.
About his "undying" influence, the quote reads "Tuberculosis claimed his life at the age of 35 in a New York City hotel room. But his influence proved undying." Musicians from multiple generations are named on the entry ("Tubb, Snow, Lefty Frizzell and Merle Haggard recorded tribute albums to Rodgers"). Other than that, the Bob Dylan tribute included "Bono, Willie Nelson, Jerry Garcia and Van Morrison". That, and referencing "thousands" of artists should be enough in my view.--GDuwenHoller! 18:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and lead

  • I like the lead; it's a good summary and well-written.
  • he is best known for his distinctive rhythmic yodeling - likely true, but I'm not sure it's cited in the body text. (Maybe I just need to be pointed to the support.)
  • Infobox: is "country music pioneer" really an occupation?
  • infobox: intruments: there's enough in the article body to support "banjo" - but not "tenor banjo".
Didn't even look at the infobox (how embarrassing!), corrections made. I'd just leave it as "known for his distinctive yodeling" on the lead.--GDuwenHoller! 18:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General

  • Great work, {{u|User:GDuwen}. I enjoyed reading this article. Given that it's over 5,000 words long, I have very little to comment on, although I reserve the right to spot things later. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose: Hello Benny and thanks for taking up my nomination. Is it possible to extend the hold a bit? I'm at the time on vacation and heading back home on the 21st of August. Until then, I don't have the proper resources to edit (as in a keyboard and the physical books that I've used). GDuwenHoller! 10:20, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@GDuwen: That's fine. Enjoy your vacation and I look forward to hearing from you again some time after the 21st. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:00, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose: Your patience is much appreciated. I just came back and I'll start working this week.--GDuwenHoller! 20:04, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose: All done. Once again, thanks for your patience. I wanted to get to it last week but we had a heatwave that kept me away from Wikipedia!--GDuwenHoller! 18:59, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm satisfied that the article meets the GA criteria, so I'm passing it. Thanks, GDuwen. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 02:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
Jimmie Rodgers in 1931
Jimmie Rodgers in 1931
  • ... that Jimmie Rodgers (pictured) is considered the "Father of Country Music"? Source: https://www.countrymusichalloffame.org/hall-of-fame/jimmie-rodgers
    https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/jimmie-rodgers
    • ALT1: ... that during his last recording session Jimmie Rodgers (pictured), who suffered of tuberculosis, had to lay on a cot between takes? Source: https://archive.org/details/jimmierodgerslif00port/page/352/mode/2up?q=cot
      Porterfield, Nolan (2007). Jimmie Rodgers: TheLife and Times of America's Blue Yodeler. University Press of Mississippi. pp. 352–353. ISBN 978-1-604-73160-6.
    • ALT2: ... that the recordings of Jimmie Rodgers (pictured) were popular in African countries including South Africa and Zimbabwe? Source: Nunn, Erich (2015). Sounding the Color Line: Music and Race in the Southern Imagination. University of Georgia Press. pp. 70–71. ISBN 978-0-820-34736-3.
      Turino, Thomas (2000). Nationalists, cosmopolitans, and popular music in Zimbabwe. University of Chicago Press. p. 235. ISBN 978-0-226-81701-9.
    • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Bob Barney

Improved to Good Article status by GDuwen (talk). Self-nominated at 17:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Jimmie Rodgers; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: @GDuwen: Good article. AGF on sources I can't access. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:39, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GDuwen, AirshipJungleman29, Onegreatjoke, Therapyisgood, Schwede66, BennyOnTheLoose, and Firefangledfeathers: given that the issues raised at WP:ERRORS and also at Talk:Jimmie Rodgers haven't been addressed yet, and it was about to hit the queues again, I'm now reopening this. Personally I do think the number of fair use music clips needs to be reduced drastically before go-live and also they shouldn't be used in multiple locations. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 20:34, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, let's just focus the discussion on the article's talk page.--GDuwenHoller! 18:21, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good now. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:49, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Non-free files

[edit]

Copied this from WP:ERRORS. Pings for @Therapyisgood, Schwede66, GDuwen, BennyOnTheLoose, AirshipJungleman29, and Amakuru. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pulling, Amakuru. Therapyisgood, when you raise such a fundamental issue, it's not good enough to raise this issue at Errors only; it needs an article talk page discussion so that those who take an interest in the topic can do something about it. I would have thought that me asking you about the lack of discussion would have spurred you on to start that discussion. Schwede66 21:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Schwede66: Had closed the computer to fall asleep to get up for work and didn't see your comment. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Therapyisgood, Schwede66, BennyOnTheLoose, AirshipJungleman29, and Amakuru. I replaced the "n.a" with a line that should be descriptive enough for "Waiting for a Train" and "Blue Yodel No. 1" (someone already took care of the others). I did not consider it an issue at the time since I'm uploading the files under fair use, and there's more than enough to justify their use for educational purposes (stated under "Purpose of use in article" in all cases).

So, if the material is copyrighted (the actual reason why it's being uploaded under fair use) and its educational purpose on the article is stated, does that not make the replaceability field redundant? It is not the first time someone raises the issue, I had it happen in some other article a long time ago. There is probably a good reason why "n.a" is automatically placed on the template if you don't fill it up (I did not write it myself).--GDuwenHoller! 18:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, there is not at all "more than enough to justify their use" here. WP:NFCC makes it clear that use of such files is to be kept to an absolute minimum, and I think a maximum of one extract of a song by Jimmie Rodgers would be more than enough for readers to understand the style of music he performed. "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information". Incidentally, the Blue Yodel song was published in 1927 so if I understand the Public domain in the United States article correctly, that's actually already public domain. So my suggestion would be to re-upload File:Blue Yodel No. 1 intro.ogg and File:Blue Yodel No. 1 (yodel).ogg as public domain content, and then leave it at that. It would be extremely unusual and a breach of the NFCC guidelines to assert that any fair use audio is required for reader understanding of this topic.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:04, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, we could probably just remove "Waiting for a Train" for the time being. I see that according to Cornell "Blue Yodel No. 1" should currently be PD as you say. I guess "Waiting For a Train" falls into that 95-year period (which would next year make it ok to upload to it Commons). I remember hearing something about an extension to 100 years, but I don't seem to find anything about it...
Anyhow, I'll try to take care of those sound samples shortly.--GDuwenHoller! 20:36, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru:, @GDuwen: I wasn't concerned so much with the number of fair use recordings (although if Ammakuru has issues with this that's totally fine), I don't think the 1927 sound recordings are PD. Please wait before uploading to the Commons. According to here, "For recordings first published between 1923-1946, the additional time period is 5 years after the general 95-year term." So for instance our article 2027_in_public_domain#United_States says "Sound recordings that were published in 1926 and [...] will [...] enter the public domain.". I would say any sound recording published in 1927 wouldn't be public domain for a while yet (2028) under the Music Modernization Act. Alternatively, you can just link to licensed versions of the songs on YouTube for instance to demonstrate his yodeling instead of fair using the clip. Therapyisgood (talk) 22:55, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The "NAs" in the current fair use boxes aren't acceptable though, so replace those with actual rationals. Therapyisgood (talk) 22:58, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per Wikipedia:NFCCE point 3 all NAs should be replaced with actual rationals. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the one I thought is public domain actually unfortunately isn't, I think we're back to having just one fair use clip in the article per the "minimal usage" clause of NFCC. Whichever one clip you think is most indicative of his work and most necessary for readers in understanding it. Linking legitimate copies on YouTube as an external link at the bottom seems a good plan too, if you want readers to have the option to listen to it. Obviously the rationales need to be brought up to scratch too, per above. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:41, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Aha! I remember I read something about the extension making it 100 years. Well, it's only a few to go in order to reinstate most of these files by uploading a full version (that counting that the companies that own the catalogs don't attempt to extend it). I'll just leave the "Blue Yodel No. 1" and the excerpt of his yodeling in that case.--GDuwenHoller! 18:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru With the removal of the excessive use of non-free files, is it now enough to reinstate the hook now?--GDuwenHoller! 17:57, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns about the number of fair use clips are just about assuaged now... I would have preferred one only, but if you really think two are absolutely necessary then so be it. It's close enough to the expiry point that I'm not sure there will be too many concerns right now anyway. However, and Therapyisgood will correct me if I'm wrong, I think you need to eliminate all of the "n.a." rationales from File:Blue Yodel No. 1 intro.ogg and File:Blue Yodel No. 1 (yodel).ogg including those in commercial opportunity etc. Each of these NFCC points must be individually satisfied. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 20:14, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru I see your point, forgot about those. Well, I replaced the last two "n.a.". I just plan to use two clips since I want to separately illustrate the yodel and the singing style. It's only a matter of time until I can restore all the files with their full version in the coming years anyhow.--GDuwenHoller! 18:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Jimmie Rodgers Entertainers image caption

[edit]

I didn't want to edit the article without asking first, but isn't that Jimmie sitting on the far right of the image? Rihdiugam (talk) 02:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rihdiugam: That was Claude Grant. Jimmie was balding (you kind of get to see it in some pictures, though you'll rarely see one of him without a hat like on this particular case). But the best way to recognize him from the others in my opinion is probably the shape of his protruding ears (and that band sure could hear!) Jimmie's were pointing out.--GDuwenHoller! 18:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a million for the reply GDuwen! That's interesting about the ears. It was Dr. John's version of Waiting for a Train that brought me here btw. Just in case your stuck for something to listen to :-) Rihdiugam (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jimmie_Rodgers&oldid=1252178019"