Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/California 4th Grade Mission Project

• I'm bringing this page up for discussion for the second and last time, I promise. It bugs me that this article is still up. It's not a useful page even for people actually working on this project: they'd be much better off going to Spanish Missions of California. This article is an orphan, and I can't see anyone running a search on this particular phrase. What is the justification for keeping this? Also, see my new comment on the talk page for the article. --Woggly 07:23, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• The rationale for keeping it is that it's a verifiable, valid piece of culture that's shared by tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people. It contains information that, if put into Spanish Missions of California, would be out of place and irrelevant. Therefore, I say keep. And can we get a picture of one of those dioramas? Meelar 07:56, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • But how are people supposed to find this page? Can you really imagine someone typing "California 4th Grade Mission Project" in a search? (I discovered it through the "random page" button). And what information would these people gain by doing so? Even if it is a common cultural experience for many people (which I somehow missed when I was in 4th grade in California) the article contains no information in addition to what can be deduced from the title. It's hardly even a dictionary definition. I can just barely see justification for a list of common school projects and study topics, but I still don't think this particular article on its own is the least bit useful. Sorry I'm being so stubborn, I guess it irks me that I can't grasp what is considered "encylopedic" by other people here. --Woggly 09:21, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. My vote is based solely on the fact that this survived VfD two months ago, exactly as it is now. Articles should not, IMO, be brought back here that soon after surviving VfD. SWAdair | Talk 10:48, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Besides agreeing that re-listing it after only 10 weeks is way too soon, the article is now (IMHO) more accurate and better documented, plus has links from the Education section of the California article, as well as the Spanish Missions of California article. Yes, it would be nice if someone who has been through the process could flesh it out, but that can be said for thousands of WP articles. And, it usually eventually happens (Another World started on WP as just "The emmy-winning NBC soap Another World air from 1964 to 1999 for 35 years."--take a look at it now). And I don't think an article documenting the fact that CA 4th graders are required to learn this subject should be expected to help them learn it. Niteowlneils 21:10, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. As SWAdair says, previous consensus rules; if anything the article has improved since them.
  • Jgm, remember that unsigned votes don't count here. :-) SWAdair | Talk 08:39, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Every fourth-grader in California public schools does this, and considering the population of California that's a lot of fourth-graders. Plus, wasn't this already on VfD? -Branddobbe 05:37, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. While I agree with Woggly that the title is cumbersome, I can tell you from experience that I did, in fact, build a model of Mission San Juan Capistrano out of sugar cubes when I was in the fourth grade. - Lucky 6.9 22:19, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Can't we get some real facts about the absolute slaughter that took place in the missions. How about the fact that besides beating Indians with his own hand Juniperro Serra would whip HIMSELF nightly. Now he's being groomed for sainthood. Let's talk about some of the revolts that took place and the 60 percent of baptized Indians dying of diseases. It's time for some real talk in the classrooms and in the articles. Let's talk about how the Indians are still ignored on a regular basis and that NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT IT!