Talk:June Havoc

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Several questions

June and Gypsy continued to get demands for money from their mother, who had opened a boardinghouse in a ten-room apartment on West End Avenue

In what city?

New York City. And it was a lesbian boardinghouse, I think it's wrong to expunge this: it's not debated.

and a farm in Highland Mills

In what state?

New York

Rose shot and killed one of her guests, (according to Erik Preminger

Who's he?

Erik Preminger is Gypsy Rose Lee's son by Otto Preminger.

this incident was kept quiet.

How? By whom? For what purpose?

VERY good question. By everyone, and to avoid scandal, but the particulars of how I hope to find in "Early Havoc".

With Rose dead, the sisters now felt free to write about her without risking a lawsuit

When did she die? How? This flows right after the supposed murder, without any indication as to her being ill or executed, or whatever.

She died of colon cancer. Both sisters have explicitly stated that they did not write until she was dead because of the fear of lawsuit.

--Zoe

Thanks for looking at this, it's good to have another set of eyes point out what's not written clearly! -- Someone else 02:33 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

Needs more June

I just read this. There's nothing wrong with what's in it, altho much of echoes the Gypsy Rose Lee article. But June Havoc was a fine actress and beautiful woman in her own right (I remember especially her cascading blond hair), and I don't think the article does her justice. I can't fix it, but I do note it. Bellagio99 (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing birth date information

From the opening sentence:
"June Havoc (born November 8, 1916)..."

From the second section:
"... She was actually born in 1913, rather than 1916, ..."
Davefoc (talk) 20:00, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found a passport application on Ancestry.com for Rose Elizabeth Hovick (dated Feb 12, 1925). Information from that passport:
People listed as accompanying her:

Rose Louise, born in Everett, Washington on January 8, 1908
Ellen June, born in Seattle, Washington on November 8, 1910

The passport says that she was divorced but it lists the name of her husband as John O. Hovick.
The ancestry.com site requires a fee, however if somebody would like me to email an image of the passport application, just send a request to davefoc@gmail.com. Davefoc (talk) 21:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dave - I suspect the above is inaccurate. Their mother lied about anything when she felt she needed to, whether that meant making the girls older or younger. June was not even born in Washington State, but in Vancouver, British Columbia. Yours, Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 20:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the passport evidence does not go to what the actual birth date was. It is just a piece of evidence for the claim that the mother did lie about their birthdays and apparently she also lied about their birth locations.--Davefoc (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More information on June Havoc's birthday:
Noralee Frankel lists it as January 8, 1913 in her book, Stripping Gypsy, as opposed to the November 8, 1913 date (after the edit by DerbyCountyinNZ) listed in the Wikipedia article. I didn't change the article because I don't think the evidence was quite enough to justify changing somebody else's work about the month. However, Frankel thinks that the evidence "strongly suggests" 1911 as the birth year of Gypsy and this would put June's birth year as 1913. I did list Frankel as an additional source for the birth date in the article.

NOTE: Frankel conflated the January 11 8 date (Gypsy's birthday) and ascribed it to June as well by mistake. Both sisters were definitely NOT born on January 11 8. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The following information was supplied by Annette Lloyd, the author of several books on Harold Lloyd (including most recently, Magic in a pair of Horn-rimmed Glasses) via email.

June does not appear in the extant versions of "Hey There" although she was on the payroll ledger for the film. So it isn't possible to assess the credibility of June's birth year based on what she looks like in "Hey There".

June does appear in the Harold Lloyd 1918 film, "On the Jump" and Annette Lloyd feels that June's apparent age in that film is very consistent with a birth year of 1913 for June.

If she was born in 1913 her age when she first married in 1929 would have been 16 and not 13 as is often reported. This would seem to add more credibility to the 1913 date also. --Davefoc (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June was born in 1913 (not 1916) and Louise in 1911 (not 1914). Their mother had kept them ignorant of their true ages. Not until years later did the sisters learn they were three years older than they each thought. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some sources give her age at death as 97 - there is still confusion over the dates of birth of her and her sister. Is there solid proof of any date, such as birth certificates, entries in birth registers or census entries? Jim Michael (talk) 16:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, of course, that that is always preferable. I was going by what I read in a library copy of a bio of Gypsy Rose Lee, Stripping Gypsy: The Life of Gypsy Rose Lee by Noralee Frankel. The author references Havoc's coming into possession of her birth certificate for the first time as an adult and contacting her sister re the discrepancy in their commonly assumed years of birth.

Also, re Noralee Frankel lists it as January 8, 1913 in her book, Stripping Gypsy, as opposed to the November 8, 1913 date (above thread) -- I observed that when I was reading the book. I think Frankel just conflated the January 11 8 date (Gypsy's birthday) and ascribed it to June by mistake. There is no way both sisters were born on January11 8. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The World Almanac lists Nov 8 1916, as does the US Public records index: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=USpublicrecords3&so=2&rank=0&=%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c&gsfn=June&gsln=Havoc&sx=&gs1co=1%2cAll+Countries&gs1pl=1%2c+&year=&yearend=&sbo=1&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&db=&ti=0&ti.si=0&gss=angs-b 76.17.118.157 (talk) 02:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Under these circumstances, I would say those are not reliable. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with RMS125 completely on all this. I think Frankel did conflate the birthday of June with that of Gypsy Rose Lee by mistake. That was too bad because she seems to be a very thorough researcher and the fact that she favored the 1913 birth year for June was good evidence that June was actually born in 1913. At this point, the evidence from her early movies coupled with the idea that she would have wed at 13 seems to completely rule out 1916 as her birth year. I had never seen 1912 suggested as the year of her birth before her death but the marriage and movie evidence don't preclude the possibility that this is the correct date. The evidence for the 1912 date is not strong. The obituaries I saw equivocated about the reliability of the date. It is conceivable that a single person made a birth year calculation mistake and the current round of reporting on June Havoc's age is all based on that miscalculation. Regardless, the current references listed in the article all support the 1913 date. If the article is going to use 1912 the reference need to be changed.--Davefoc (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a link to a YouTube video with June Havoc performing in the 1918 short comedy "On the Jump" that starred Harold Lloyd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dFFFfPa0Mo

The video comes about as close as humanly possible to ruling out the 1916 birth date I think. The person that posted the video says that June was four in it but to my eyes 5 or 6 seems more likely which would be consistent with either the 1912 or 1913 birth years which seem to have the most support. I think it might be a nice addition to the external links section to add the video. It also confirms her role in "On the Jump" which might be added to her filmography. I have personally looked through a video version of "Hey There" and I am sure that Havoc wasn't in it. I think that listing in the filmography is suspect. --Davefoc (talk) 07:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gypsy Rose Lee Birth year

The birth date for Gypsy Rose Lee was changed to 1914 in this article. The birth date listed in the Wikipedia article for Gypsy Rose Lee (January 9, 1914) is almost certainly wrong. Gypsy Rose Lee was the older sister of June Havoc (this seems to be an issue not in dispute). So if June was born in 1913 Gypsy was born before then. Noralee Frankel the author of Stripping Gypsy discusses the birth date of Gypsy and June on pages 3 & 4 of her book and concludes with these two sentences: "To add to the confusion, Rose registered Gypsy for school in 1916 using the name Rose Louise and a birth date of January 9, 1911. Such evidence strongly suggests Gypsy was born in 1911." from: http://books.google.com/books?id=O2xxhFcOXfwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=stripping+gypsy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wyn0Togc5NGIAuXjmIAN&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stripping%20gypsy&f=false --Davefoc (talk) 19:03, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link to an image of a passport application for Rose Hovick dated February 12, 1925. She lists the ages and birth locations of her children as noted above. This is not proof of what the actual birth dates were since Rose is known to have lied often about the ages of her children. But it does provide another piece of evidence that Gypsy was older than June. It also includes the fact that Rose was divorced on August 20, 1915. This is another piece of evidence that the 1916 birth year for June Havoc is not correct. https://picasaweb.google.com/109328117361721097794/MiscImages02#5689411595319535426 --Davefoc (talk) 19:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I undid the change of Gypsy Rose Lee's birth date and returned it to 1911. --Davefoc (talk) 19:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Daughter April

Info re daughter (April Hyde) from New York Times. Daughter's year of birth questionable; IMDb is not always accurate as some sources cite 1935 as April's year of birth. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The SSDI is a more reliable source for her lifespan. The IMDb profile should still be used as a ref, as it gives details of her acting career, as well as the fact she used the surname Kent for her career, and that her maiden name was Reed, despite the fact that Havoc's first husband Bobby Reed was not her father. Jim Michael (talk) 13:55, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SSDI gives date of birth of April R. Hyde as April 2, 1935; date of death as December 28, 1998. I searched the SSDI before but I guess I didn't use the right combination of names. I guess the "R." shows that Reed was her maiden name as you posited, but I was right about the year of birth, not IMDb. Thanks for your help. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 14:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth

Some sources state Seattle. Jim Michael (talk) 02:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which sources? Are they reliable? I would advise against making further unilateral changes without discussion first. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 02:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 11, MSNBC, which I believe is considered reliable. Jim Michael (talk) 21:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MSNBC, I dunno. I really doubt MSNBC has the ability to discern which of the numerous birth certificates her mother held for her daughters is correct. If Havoc was born in Canada, albeit apparently to American parents, maybe Canadian ancestry records can confirm. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 21:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Havoc was born in Canada either in 1912 or 1913. There is a passport application that lists her birth location as Seattle, Washington and her birth date as November 8, 1910. However, this may be the sole piece of evidence for a non-Canadian birth location and given her mother's propensity for lying about her children's ages it seems likely that the birth location listed on it is probably a lie also. Canada is more restrictive about releasing birth records than the US and assuming that Havoc was born in Canada, her birth information won't be publically available for a very long time. Access to Havoc's birth information might serve to clear up any issues concerning her birth date, birth location and birth name. One indication that she wasn't born in Seattle is that her birth certificate wasn't found by either Frankel or Abbott, two authors that wrote biographies of Gypsy Rose Lee. Abbott did find a birth certificate for Gypsy Rose Lee. Given that almost all sources list Havoc's birth location as Canada and that no birth certificate has surfaced to contradict this I think it is very likely she was born in Canada, but without the Canadian birth certificate pinning this down to a certainty probably isn't possible.--Davefoc (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Guinness Book

I recall seeing Havoc's name in a Guiness Book of World Records, back in mid-60s. Anyone here or @Guiness remember why she was in there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BubbleDine (talk • contribs) 13:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If she was in the Guiness book of records it was probably for marathon dancing. Several on-line articles claim that she was in the Guiness book of Records for lasting 3600 hours in a marathon dance contest. While this was an incredible feat it may not have been the longest such feat during the marathon dance era. One book on the subject that I found with a Google Book search listed other people with somewhat longer endurance times as the record holders. The Guiness World Record site doesn't list her but the site includes only a small portion of the data from past books. Regardless, it seems like the fact that Havoc actually lasted 3600 hours in a dance marathon contest is interesting enough and relevant enough to her life that it deserves a mention in the article.--Davefoc (talk) 17:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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"They later divorced"

Quite likely, as the next sentence is about her next marriage. So what information does "they later divorced" add?2A02:AA1:1010:5FFF:142B:3BBF:FFF3:9590 (talk) 15:41, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

removed not deleted

should read "removed" not "deleted" 2607:F2C0:EA79:FDAC:F0B6:901F:E8DF:92EE (talk) 23:57, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]