User talk:Camembert/archive 1

Hello there, welcome to the 'pedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you need any questions answered about the project then check out Wikipedia:Help or drop me a line. BTW, nice job on the Gustav Mahler article. Cheers! --maveric149

Per your questions on my talk page:

The "minor edit" checkbox is mainly used by contributers to indicate that all they did was very minor (a spelling or minor link fix for example). There is also a feature in user preferences to not show minor edits in Recent Changes. However this feature isn't particularly useful since the software does not check to see if minor edits are in fact minor. For example a non-logged-in vandal can replace an entire article with dis-coherent nonsense and mark that as a "minor edit" or a user could mark as a minor edit the addition of a highly POV paragraph. So I personally ignore the distinction except for user's and IPs I know and trust.

As for transliteration: What we do around here is use the most widely known and used version of terms so long as this does not conflict with the names of other things (see Wikipedia:naming conventions. Sometimes this means we use "Pyotr" and sometimes it means we use "Peter" -- it all depends on what is mostly used by English speakers for the full term in question.

For your particular example and similar ones like it, it is often (but not always) useful to use Google as an objective measure. I performed a search for "Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky" looking only at English webpages and found [url snipped]. Both versions of his name that do not have his middle name got fewer results than the three word versions.

But be careful there are also three different spelling variants of his middle name -- Ilyich, Ilych, Ilich -- each of which needs to be checked to see which 3 word combination is really the one most widely used. Here is the link to Google Advanced English Search: http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en

But all this is just to determine what the actual wikipedia page should be called. The second most widely used term for his name should be on the first line of the article and that term should be rediercted to the most widely used one. That way search enginge, both internal and external, will be able to find both terms. See Eva Peron for an example.

I hope this helps! PS, feel free to copy any or all of the above for use in your argument and you may also want to eventually delete some of the longer URLs I put into your talk page here -- for lower res screens this may make the edit window wider than the screen. --mav

Hi, Camembert (cheesy name :-) ), nice job on the Mahler article! Keep up the good work, regards Jeronimo

Thankyou, sir. I shall do my best :-)

Yes, great job on mahler! I had wanted to see an article about him for long, but i was too lazy to do it. Now I just play with the one there is :) AstroNomer

Well spotted on French horn! Cor anglais is a different instrument entirely -- this I well know from years of music lessons, and I'm kicking myself for not having seen it in the article which I edited just before you did. -- Tarquin 08:08 Aug 25, 2002 (PDT)

gah. thanks for the RatM heads-up; i didn't bother to check since it was linked at requested articles. will fix. and thanks for the kind words on Sandman. just another 100 or so characters to go. *sigh*. when i'm done, i'm compiling all my stuff and getting it published, i think. :P --AW

Thanks for the redirect edit. I was researching it and found out how shortly after you made the change for Great dane. --Jim

Hi Camembert,

what do you think about my sugestion for multiple categorisation? Would it work?

User:Renata

copy and paste from User talk:Maveric149

All of the old user pages that just redirect to new user pages should be deleted. Sure things link to them, but they are taking up space in the main namespace, rather than where they should be, which is in the User namespace. I tried to prepair some of them for deletion, however you (Maveric149) didn't seem to agree with my motives. What if one of those old user pages is the same name as something that could make a useful entry? Why should they take up space in the 'pedia so that they can just redirect to their user page? I find it quite annoying when I am looking for something relovant in the 'pedia, by using the Random page link, and I get some outdated user page redirect! -- Mbecker

User:The_Cunctator
User:Kpjas
User:Matt Stoker
User:Eob
User:Taw
User:PaulDrye
User:MMGB
User:SJK
User:Simon J Kissane

No problem re: Mego, Merzbow etc. Obviously if you have more information to add to these pages it would be good. Seems that articles on Industrial Music, Experimental Music (this is a big one) would be in order. just checked your website btw... very nice, hard to get good experimental music here in bristol. Greg Godwin

Sorry about the question marks on the composer page. It must be something to do with my linux editor gvim. andrewthorne

See Alban Berg & Second Viennese School. Should we make "twelve tone technique" there redirect to Serialism? -- Tarquin

I'm very proud of mouthpiece but I did it off the top of my head and judging from your recent changes to wind instrument you could improve it considerably. Ortolan88

Thanks for restoring Napoleonic Code while I was trying to find out how to do it. The FAQ doesn't have a 'how to revert' section, and neither does the how-to-edit page - or is that something that only admins can do? -- Marj 19:42 Nov 2, 2002 (UTC)

I've answered on your talk page.

I see you are not an Admin yet. Having the ability to block a vandal's IP is both important and something we necessarily can only trust to people who have proven their trustworthyness. I for one trust you with this responsibility and recommend that you ask the Wikipedia mailing list for the account upgrade. BTW, just because you are an Admin doesn't mean that you have to do site maintenance. All it means is that you do what has to be done when it is needed. Cheers! --mav

Dear Camembert: Hi! How are you? I honestly didnt know there was a page for the album Sgt Pepper Lonely's Heart Club Band already. The reason I didnt know was that I went to the Heavy Metal page and there, there was a question mark around the name of this album. I sincerely apologize if Sgt Pepper's original page belongs to you. If you need to merge both pages or anything else you need to do, please feel free to do so.

I hope to hear from you soon!

Sincerely yuors, User:AntonioMartin

Nice (and prompt) work on Lonnie Donegan! --rbrwr

Thanks Rob. It could take some expansion of course (what couldn't?), but it's alright for starters. --Camembert

Camembert: In reference to your questions on Talk:Richard Wagner, the text of Das Judenthum in der Musik, unfortunately in a fairly convoluted translation, can be found at [1]. I myself can see no reason for the deletion of the paragraphs from the Wagner article. -- Someone else 05:47 Nov 20, 2002 (UTC)

Ah, if I'd looked a little closer at the essay's title, I guess at least one of my questions would have been answered (clear he is just criticising them for being Jewish) - I'll put the paragraphs in question back and look at the essay later (thanks for the link). --Camembert

Hi Cam. I've got one for you: Talk:Key (music). :-) -- Tarquin 12:50 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)

I've given it a shot - what we really need, I think, is a clearer page on transposing instruments, but that's something I'll work on some other day if nobody gets there before me. --Camembert 13:47 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)

Help! Where does it say "singles titles in quotes"? Please see Talk:Human League for (non-sarcastic) query! Thanks, Nevilley 00:01 Nov 25, 2002 (UTC)

Sorry, Nevilley - I thought the Manual of Style said "songs in quotes" explicitly, but it didn't (it does now though). --Camembert

If only there were something to disambiguate it FROM, think how nice an article Movie Movie (movie) would be... Someone else

It's almost worth setting up a video rental business of that name to make it possible. Almost... --Camembert

HA! I hadn't even thought about the self-links, good one! --Dante Alighieri

No problem - I really like that you linked all the other letters, by the way; one of those things that's so obvious, you think "why didn't I do that?" :) --Camembert

You can't move an article to a location once it already exists. Since I was moving "VBScript" to "VBScript programming language" (which IS the appropriate title) and this article already exists, Move this page won't work. You have to Copy & Paste. Just another reason you should not play with things without asking first. Also, you should mention your changes in the section of the pedia that is appropriate for the article you are moving. So you should have mentioned your change in programming language in addition to Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Also, take a good long look at list of programming languages. You want to rename all of them? There are hundreds. I personally have spent weeks setting up this section to have a consistent syntax and based on the concensus at talk:programming language. -Robert Lee

I've replied on your talk page.

My apologies if maybe I misinterpreted your comment about Griffith, and since I did move it from simply David to David Wark it was in effect accomplishing what you wanted. I've always known what the D. W. stood for so it seemed the natural thing to do. Please note that I did not include Lewelyn as part of the name. I've also made sure that all the redirects are in order. All of the D. W. entries have been piped to David Wark; all simply David link entries have been changed to David Wark. Eclecticology 17:23 Nov 30, 2002 (UTC)

Thanks - I didn't actually realise the page had been moved at all. I've repsonded a bit more fully on your talk page. --Camembert

I've added a couple more comments on this matter in my response at --KQ. I think this kind of issue will keep repeating itself as long as we depend on "most popular form. Eclecticology

You make some very useful points, which only proves that agreeing to what somebody should be named is not easy. The one point where there appears to be very broad agreement is that once you have chosen how to enter a name you should redirect from the reasonable alternatives. Your examples make sense. I would balk at all these obscure middle names for Puccini as much as I balked at including Lewelyn in the Griffith entry. I would hesitate at anything more than expanding two initials for given names unless the name really was commonly represented with more than two such initials (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien) Older names (before 1600) will always be a problem. The modern conventions that are now the standard for how we know people were only being developed during the 1500s when Lassus was born; they weren't even around for Des Pres. We do best by treating each of these cases individually. One of the problems about being too rule bound is the inability to recognize that somebody else can be right too.

Greetings,

You removed Sanskrit language from wikipedia:Votes for deletion because things had been "dealt with". Unfortunately, things are now back as they were before; Sanskrit is (incorrectly) the main article and Sanskrit language is a redirect to Sanskrit. I assume that you did indeed removed Sanskrit language, but that someone soon after recreated it, again as a redirect to Sanskrit. I guess what I needed to ask for was not only a delete, but a delete followed immediately by a move page.

Do you have any suggestions about how to deal with these cases where an article and a redirect need to be swapped? Is "Votes for deletion" the right forum? Should I try to get sysop status if I care that much?

Thanks, Ryguasu 11:48 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)

I did in fact move "Sanskrit" to "Sanskrit language", but it was moved back again. The discussion that took place about this was initially on Talk:Sanskrit, but is now to be found at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (languages). Basically, the thinking behind the move back was this: the naming convention said that all natural languages should be called "X language" - as in English language, for example. This is because "English" alone would be anbiguous - does it mean the language, or does it mean "pertaining to England"? However, the general consensus seemed to be that the naming convention was at fault, because some language names are used for nothing other than the language - "Sanskrit", for example. Consequently, the convention now states that where there is no ambiguity in the name of the language alone, no "language" suffix is required (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions for the revised convention). Once the debate about this convention settles down, pages like Latin language and Farsi language will be renamed Latin and Farsi.

The new convention is still being discussed and is always open to change, so if you want to join in at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (languages) feel free to do so. Also, I am assuming that the word "Sanskrit" really is used for nothing but the language - if this is not the case then the page on the language should indeed be at "Sanskrit language". Do you know if "Sanskrit" is used in any other way?

As for moving pages in general: if it's a simple case of swapping an article with a redirect, the "move this page" function (there's a link from every article page, so long as you're signed in) should allow you to do this. It won't allow you to move a page if the target article has any more content than a redirect, or if there is anything else in that page's history, but otherwise, it should work fine. If for whatever reason, that doesn't work, then yes, the "Votes for deletion page" is the right place to mention this. Or, as you say, you can become a sysop, which will allow you to delete pages to make room for page moves.

I hope all this helps, and makes at least some sort of sense. If you need anything clarifying, don't hesitate to ask. --Camembert

Thanks! I might have noticed all that eventually, but who knows when it would have been. As for definition of music, see my my talk page for a reply. --Ryguasu 15:51 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)

Hi Camembert- I don't know if you were aware but I've started doing a list of free improvisers at the Free improvisation page (just a few I could think of off of the top of my head)- I wondered if you might be interested in expanding the list or starting to create some artilces on some of the players mentioned? Cheers quercus robur 18:42 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

Sorry - this is confusing. I thought you'd edited Faure and the redirection, but it seems something must have gone wrong with the database, as there's no evidence of my having amended the entries. If you saw the interim page, ignore it. I was just looking at the page for Gabriel Faure. He is much more famous for his Requiem, 2 piano quartets, Penelope, Masques et Bergamasques, and Pelleas et Melisande, than the pieces mentioned. Also he wrote songs to poems by Verlaine - amongst others - e.g La Bonne Chanson. I'll try to fix it later (again!). David Martland 20:11 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

I did see your earlier message here, and must admit, I was a bit confused! Anyway, I quite agree with your analysis of which of his works are better known - the article needs to be edited somewhat. All the best --Camembert

I've now fixed the Faure pages - I don't know what happened. I thought I'd uploaded my edits, but I guess they didn't get there, unless there was some sort of problem with the database (just possible...).

You might want to look at the new section on Maurice Duruflé - which I'm reasonably pleased with. I do want to check whether he actually gave first performances of Poulenc's organ concerto, and Louis Vierne's Sym 6 - I think he did - but need to check further. Have a nice weekend. David Martland 08:49 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

Hi camembert- Yes they are my pics of Derek & Lol, also the SME- I've got a pic of Stevens at the same SME gig somewhere but buggered if I can find them- these soert of things usually turn up when I stop looking tho...

Cheers for now quercus robur 10:40 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

Thanks for unblocking me! -- RM

No problem - glad to be of service :)

Aye oop! If you haven't seen it (and indeed why should you?), could you please have the quickest of looks at Talk:Pitch_of_brass_instruments as there are one or two general principles about music articles which I raise in there - a timely comment from you now could save me making a complete %^&* of myself later! Also, I do hope that you were not the original author of the article, which I have started hacking about in the vague hope of improving it but may have the opposite effect ... :) Nevilley 16:56 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll have a look at it - I don't think I even knew the article existed until just now, so I certainly didn't write it (though if I had, I should think it'd need more hacking around than most :) --Camembert

In reply to your question on my talk page: I am intending to write biographical material, and maybe something on the overarching themes (as in plot, not music) of this operas. I'm very happy to leave the musical analysis to you. Cheers. -- CYD

re anti-copyright: It is an actual "copyright" statement. It is required because in may places items are copyright unless specifically stated otherwise. It would be a bit more popular than "some" anarchists. With most things anarchist, it is very difficult to tell how popular. My feeling is that it may be 75% or more popular in the small fanzine area of anarchism of 15 years ago. I do not know how popular it is today. Karl

Re Durufle - I thought he did the Vierne first performance, but was not absolutely sure, so I left it. If you can confirm with your visit to Groves, then that should be updated. Just did Paul Tortelier - dates very hard, as much inconsistency between web based sources. I don't have time to check much further. There's also quite a gap I think between his period at the Conservatoire, and his time with the first orchestra mentioned - what did he do then? Lastly, I should confirm that William Pleeth was in fact Jacqueline du Pre's teacher - if it wasn't him, it was someone similarly modest, who is relatively unknown. David Martland 21:01 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

Thanks Camembert for reminding us that Verklaerte Nacht was for string sextet - I have an LP by Boulez with that version, but couldn't actually remember how many players were in it. It's very good - if it's still available. My LP was 2 LP set, with other works by Boulez - must get some equipment to play it one day. 195.137.39.195 10:28 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)

I have a recording of Boulez conducting the orchestral version with the NYPO - it's on one of those Sony "Essential Classics" CDs. I'm not usually a big fan of Boulez as a conductor (though I like a lot of his compositions), but that's quite a good recording, I think. I don't think I have a recording of the sextet version - a shame really, because it's very nice that way. --Camembert

Camembert - I wonder if you can help. I'm looking for a CD (preferably, though tape would do - DVD not yet possible) of Lincke's Berliner Luft. Actually I think that's a whole operetta, but there's a march which Classic FM play occasionally, and my father in law wants to have it - preferably as a Christmas present. It's surprisingly hard to track down - there's a DVD from Amazon - probably has the whole operetta, and a few LPs or singles. Any advice? David Martland 10:33 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)

I'm looking into it - I'll answer on your talk page. --Camembert

Cheers on Rushden and Diamonds F.C., Camambert. Could you have a look at Charlotte Ayanna, too? I noticed this was "courtesy of IMDb" a couple of weeks ago and mentioned it on the talk page, but nobody seems to have noticed. Thanks. --rbrwr

Thanks for bringing it up - I've shuffled around what was there a bit, and it should be OK now. Why I feel inclined to do this with some actress I've never heard of, but don't want to do it with Rushden and Diamonds, I don't know. I guess being brought up on Doncaster Rovers can put you off football... --Camembert

Thanks for the advice on moving articles. I've done this so many times before and had never realised that facility existed. --Deb

Glad to be of service! --Camembert

Hey, I've just realised why I never used it before - I don't seem to have the option on my screen. Any idea why? --Deb

Thanks for the suggestions about Berliner Luft - I have actually placed an order with Amazon for one of the few available versions in this country - the Classic FM one, but it may not come till mid January. If I can get it earlier any other way, I'll do that and cancel my order. There's a Naxos CD with a Potpourri of music from the operetta - maybe that'll include what's required - so I'll look out for that in HMV. If you stumble across a copy of anything relevant, please let me know - I'm amazed it's so difficult! David Martland 00:09 Dec 18, 2002 (UTC)

You are right, I'm not sure how I changed it back... perhaps it happened when I somehow lost my edit and started over, pasting in some text I already had on my clipboard from the edit I'd lost without checking if it matched the current text. -- RTC 23:53 Dec 18, 2002 (UTC)

You're probably right, it seems our edits collided in some way. Anyway, not to worry, all is well now. --Camembert

Seems thats the whole idea here... no matter what you do, someone sooner or later catches any mistakes and fixes them... more often sooner :-) -- RTC

That's certainly the idea - one of the reasons I love this place is that there's usually somebody there to catch all by bad spelling :) --Camembert

Sorry, man. I am rephrasing my remarks, as I now see that they were too polemical and too flame-like. Also, I concur with you that these topics need to be discussed. I just was hurt, and am thinking about how to discuss them. RK

Don't worry about it, feelings are bound to run high on such emotive subjects. I really appreciate the rephrasing, by the way. --Camembert

<Sigh> Advice please? I am just trying to avoid getting into an edit war about names of things in English and German - books and music, Zweig and Strauss. I looked for help on a rule but I don't think I've found one other than that we should do whatever works best in Englsih - but this does of course lead to inconsistencies even within articles. Personally I have no problem coping with "Royal Game" in the same article as "Schweigsame Frau" because I think those are the most common (hem hem, everything's relative!) English usages. I just think there has to be room for common sense and compromise - I am never going to agree that Rosenkavalier must be rendered into English (where it sounds even bl**dy sillier than the original) but nor am I likely to insist that Shostakovitch 5 should be shown as "Drzomphomony Nr Vonvo" or whatever! Do we, in fact have a general rule??? Penny for your thoughts on this? Nevilley 16:44 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

Update - peacefully settled wrt Zweig and Strauss! But still an interesting question ... Nevilley 20:11 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

I've responded on your talk page, but basically I think what you've been doing is dead right - it's better to use familiar names than to be consistent. --Camembert

Thanks! I think this: I'd talk about "Les Noces (The Wedding)", but also "The Rite of Spring (Le Sacre du Printemps)". sums it up pretty completely! (In other words, me too.) It's seat-of-the-pants flying. :) All good wishes, Nevilley 13:20 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)

Im afraid I cant fathom why you think noting that the Asiatic Fleet mined the harbors would be a major modification. Of course, you should note that the whole article is one big modification from nothing, so im not sure who is going to need notification that I have made some big change. If will be happy to turn off minor changes as my default, but am I then to report everything as major and tell the wikipedians who feel that everything I am doing is minor, that they are mistaken as to the importance of my changes? Vera Cruz

And your point doesnt make any sense to me, because although most of my edits are marked minor, and almost any real changes i make are on pages which i am the sole editor at this time, i certainly do not mark ALL my edits as minor. Vera Cruz

Hello there. Thanks for putting me right on "The Red Shoes". Not the first time a reference book has lied to me, but I was in doubt, so I should have double-checked. Deb

I'm glad you checked into it further. I'd looked on IMDB but they didn't seem to mention it - but then, there would be nothing to mention, if Korda dropped out before the beginning. That b**** reference book was still wrong, anyway. --Deb

Thanks for adding the language back; I thought the change was odd too but wasn't bold enough to change it back then. KQ

No problem - I probably wouldn't have looked at the page at all if it weren't for somebody coming along and making a lot of changes a good deal odder than that one. --Camembert

Hm, I hope you're not talking about me. I made a few changes, in good faith. :-) --KQ

Oh no, not you - I was thinking of the same person who created Wikipedia:Avoid offensive usernames (which now redirects to the proper policy page, but which was originally about how Jimbo is a dictator or something). Maybe his changes weren't really that odd, but I was on my guard against him as he'd been doing funny stuff elsewhere. But no, I certainly wasn't thinking of your changes, KQ :-) --Camembert

Hi C

sorry to use you as music article consultant and fount of all wisdom, but ...

Could you have a quick look at viola and violist please?

I feel it's very daft that a list of viola players is now appearing in both places. I think that one list is enough (some would argue it's too many heheh!) and I wondered if you were aware of a Wikiepedia Standard Approach to this issue. Whilst I think the list in the violist article is probably no bad thing, some of the stuff in viola is quite well intergrated with the text so I am loth to just suddenly hoick (sp?) it out of there. Ideas please? Thanks, Nevilley 22:10 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

I've answered on your user talk page, but violas are things I prefer not to think about too much ;)

Why? Vera Cruz

Im obviously User:Vera Cruz Vera Cruz

Hi, how do you move a text to Project Sourceberg? I have a primary text on Wiki I want to move. JTD 20:50 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

I've answered on your user talk page.

Thanks. BTW, another problem some people in Europe are having. Some commands like redirect require the cardinal number sign. However new computer key boards in Europe often don't have it anymore, as it has been replaced by the € sign. Unless we do constant cutting and pasting, (or we plug in old pre € keyboards everytime we need to type it!) we are cardinal number-less! Any suggestions? A cardinal numberless JTD 04:29 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, Cam. After a lot of working through various combinations, I've worked out that Alt 3 on my eMac produces #! I, and other friends of mine who had bought new euroised keyboards that 'lost' the # and had it replaced by a €, were all fuming because we received no information as to how we could produce a #. We were even hold when we rang a help-line simply that 'due to demand, we installed a € in place of a #'; ie, its gone. And I'm afraid (as you may have noticed) I'm big into history, not computers (which I can just about switch on and off. Another more technical, and I'm lost!) so I'd written off the # as being yet another victim of the damned euro. So thanks. With my new skills, I'm off to redirect hundreds and hundreds of Wiki pages for the fun of it!!! (Only joking!) JTD 20:48 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

PS - on a totally different point: there has been a lot of confusion over how to refer to royalty other than monarchs on Wiki, with numerous 'solutions' tried by different people; surname, 'guessed' (and usually wrong) surname, title, mixture of them all, etc. I suggested a solution on the History standards page. I also posted it on the mailing list. No-one has disagreed; indeed many strongly agreed. A few suggested sensible minor changes. So, as there seems to be an overwhelming consensus on this idea, do I post the Three Generation Rule (as I call it) on the naming standards page? (A number of people have already begun adjusting titles and references to follow the proposed standard rule!) [You know I am hooked on Wiki when I end up checking not just books on royal titles but even with Buckingham Palace and the Laeken Palace for accurate background info. And the Irish president's office is due to come back to me with permission to use their official pictures of presidents on Wiki!] JTD 20:48 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

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