Talk:Total Football

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There ought to be some mention of Jock Stein's Celtic in the late 60's which led to a UEFA championship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonrreira (talk • contribs) 21:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"Michels was appointed for the 1974 FIFA World Cup campaign by the KNVB. Most of the 1974 team were made up of players from Ajax and Feyenoord. However, Rob Rensenbrink was an outsider, having played for clubs in neighboring Belgium, and was unfamiliar with Total Football, although he was selected and adapted well. During the tournament, the Netherlands coasted through their first and second round matches, defeating Argentina (4-0), East Germany(2-0) and Brazil (2-0) to setup a meeting with hosts West Germany.[3]

The 1974 Finals, which was often touted as Total Football versus Total Discipline. Cruyff kicked off and the ball was passed around the Oranje thirteen times before returning to Cruyff, who then went on a rush that eluded Berti Vogts and ended when he was fouled by Uli Hoeness inside the box. Teammate Johan Neeskens scored from the spot kick to give the Netherlands a 1-0 lead with 80 seconds of play elapsed, and the Germans had not even touched the ball. Cruyff's playmaking influence was stifled in the second half of the match by the effective marking of Berti Vogts, while Franz Beckenbauer, Uli Hoeness and Wolfgang Overath dominated midfield, enabling West Germany to win 2-1.[4]"

This whole passage is surplus to requirements.

Just some thoughts.

Although Holland brought back the concept of total football, the German national team of the 70s could also be said to use the total football concept.

Regarding Total Football in England:

The Everton team of the 1920's were noted to play football of the 'highest scientific order', whilst at that time it probably couldn't be concidered pure Total Football it was a forerunner. In the late 60's Everton's manager Harry Catterick brought skillfull football to the Englsih game, Spurs were another club that were doing the same. At Everton this skillfull football was to develop and by the championship winning side of 1969/70 it could be said that Everton were playing Total Football, the phrase hadn't been coined then.

Whislt the Dutch national side brought Total Football to a worldwide audience, it had bee implemented and developed in other places as well as Ajax and the Dutch National team.

A misunderstanding of Total Football?

The article does not seem to highlight that Total Football is not just an attacking system but a defensive one. In a Total Football system, players constantly close down the ball while those around them shift into different positions in order to limit the space behind them.

For this reason, Arsenal and Barcelona cannot be considered as teams who play Total Football, despite them playing a pass and move game. Both teams sit back when not in possession (Arsenal played a pressing game during the 07-08 season, but at this time didn't play pass and move as they went for or a more direct approach).

On the other hand, the European Cup winning A.C. Milan sides of '89 and '90 (managed by Arrigo Sacchi) played "Total Football".

This article needs to be cleaned of irrelevant information and state more clearly the correct definition of Total Football. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.139.127 (talk) 16:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

By watching Barcelona play you clearly see that they do press at all times when they do not have the ball. It might not be obvious because they hold the ball on an average of 60-65% of the time. La Fuzion (talk) 21:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Origin of the term, Barcelona and drugs

In 'Inverting the Pyramid' Jonathan Wilson makes the following points:

Total football was based around a fluid 4-3-3 formation with the sweeper often pushing up to make a 3-4-3 and players exchanging position. When Michels moved on to Barcelona he carried total football on there. Denying the opposition space was a key part of total football, playing a high line and pressing. He quotes Hulshoff and Muller, the club masseur, describing the use of drugs such as amphetamines to allow them to press for much of the game.

"The term totalvoetbal appeared only in response to performances of the national side in the 1974 world cup."

--David.castell (talk) 08:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

References

POV

Without sources, the list of clubs that utilise "total football" (Barcelona, Arsenal etc) is pure POV King of the North East 11:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Also whoever wrote that Athletic Bilbao play tiki-taka doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Bilbao are a very physical, aggressive team, with a strong defence and counter-attack – they've always been this way, and very seldom been about technicality or passing. They very much stand at the other end of the spectrum to Barcelona in style. Noldorin (talk) 16:48, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

First sentence

Sorry, but is the goalkeeper an outfield player? I don't think so.KD Tries Again (talk) 01:02, 7 June 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Lobanovskiy's Dynamo sides of the early 70s

What about Lobanovskiy's teams of 1970s and 1980s where the same principle of all players defending and all playing attacking were used? In fact, we can, possibly, credit Lobanovskiy with independent introduction of Total Football at Dynamo Kyiv as early as 1973. Goliath74 (talk) 18:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Jack Reynolds

It is not really clear what his contribution to the concept was. I do not understand what 'he witnessed' means here. TF is a fairly broad term that has little to do with strict positional play (Pamour (talk) 12:19, 19 September 2012 (UTC)).

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Many things wrong with this article

I know that there are some people here who - rather aggressively - defend the kind of information on this page. Nonetheless, it seems to me that it's necessary to critically assess this article, because it is fundamentally flawed. The information here is largely unsourced, and if it is based upon a source, then the source is either quite elementary (e.g. one short newspaper article from The Guardian) or the source is not making the statements used in this article at all (e.g. 'Jimmy Hogan laid the foundations or is the architect of Total Football', which is nowhere in the article).

To add to this: is seems to me that there is a general problem with regard to articles on football related matters (perhaps sports in general?), namely that contributions tend to just say something without properly citing sources, but mostly without sources at all. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that sports do not really have a scientific background in the sense that you can base information upon the work of researchers who did peer reviewed research? In any case, I also edited the page on Jimmy Hogan, which is suffering from the aforementioned problems. The same goes for the page on the Golden Team; but at least there we find a call for 'additional citations for verification'. 213.124.169.240 (talk) 13:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

To repeat: if someone wants to change anything about the origins, please engage in a conversation right here; especially the person who goes behind the name Eem dik doun in toene, who apparently thinks he owns the articles he contributes to. 213.124.169.240 (talk) 14:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources have been added (also in my latest edit) which point to the fact TF wasn't developed out of the blue in the 1970s, but that the system and its origins were already around much earlier (see e.g., ref 1 and its quote). Not referenced, but there is also a book by Tifo - The Athletic (they really have great podcasts and videos) which state the Dutch "popularised" the system instead of creating it. Not to mention the Russians, who credit Viktor Maslov, one of their own. However, since there are also references which point to the 1970s as its starting point, we have to find a solution.

So, I went through the article and made some amends as the article was confusing. There was conflicting information in the article with the second sentence in the lede stating it was created in the 1970s, while some other references in the article stated something else. Also, the first sentence in the body of the article is supported by three refs. None of these refs claim it was "similar" to TF, but rather the system itself.

I also tried to make the story about TF's origins in the lede more neutral; I just wanted to take action instead of bickering. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 18:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Let me explain to you a few things. First of all, this is a collaborative project. It seems to me that you are mainly operating on your own. You don't seem to care much for the opinions of others, you just make your edits, regardless of the fact that it's more than clear by now that I fundamentally disagree with your opinions & methods.

What irritates me in that light as well, is that you are constantly engaging in own research, with a selective reading of the sources you provide (if you provide them at all). For example, take this sentence in the lede: "According to some authors, Total Football started in the 1930s with the Austrian Wunderteam, followed by the Golden Team of Hungary of the 1950s." You provide two sources. First, one random newspaper article by the New York Times, to which anyone can put 50 articles that state the exact opposite. Second, an article from the book "Who invented the stopover", where the claim, that Total Football was invented by these teams, is nowhere to be found!; on the contrary, quite the opposite, already in the beginning of that chapter the author states that Rinus Michels invented it (though not entirely)! (A common motif of that book is, btw, that a true inventor is always difficult (if not impossible) to determine.) Again: a selective reading and a selective use of sources which doesn't justify your claim at all. To be clear, I have no problem with adding these opinions, but they are opinions against the common conception; you are now turning it completely around.

The current version is therefore completely unacceptable, especially since Michels - who is generally regarded as the inventor - is now almost a footnote to the matter. "Other authors credit" you write. No, not 'other authors', the vast majority of authors you mean; the orthodox view. And also, since when are podcasts and newspaper articles more valuable than an actual encyclopedia? I've provided a reliable source with Encyclopedia Britannica, and for some reason it now has the same value as a random newspaper article?

Last but not least, why isn't it mentioned in this article that no-one was talking about "total football" as a term or concept, until the 1970s when Rinus Michels coached Ajax & the Dutch national team (the tactics of the Wunderteam & Golden team were never referred to as "total football")? And for a second consideration: if Michels already knew the common principles of "total football" in the 60s, then why didn't he use that tactic for Ajax back then? And for a third consideration: how come all these commentators apparently know precisely how a team from the 1930s played; or are they all centennials? 213.124.169.240 (talk) 19:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Skipping the false (and quite ironic) accusations, I don't have to provide all available sources to illustrate a point that there are authors who claim that TF was around earlier than the 1970s, as we have indeed at least two reliable sources which state that, which is enough. We can nitpick about the references, but the book and NY Times are reliable, as is Britannica. It is stated in "Who invented the stepover" that "even Sebes didn't invent Total Football", to immediately refer to Meisl's Austrian Wunderteam as it's originators (they don't literally state e.g., "the Austrian team invented it", which would make boring reading, but it's very clear from this part what they mean). The authors therefore imply that it was already around pre-1970s. This is not selective reading; this is what they say. Just to note: The Athletic is a sports journalism website, not just a podcast/video maker.

The concept of TF was more or less already discussed by some pre-1970s (e.g., Willy Meisl in his book in the 1950s or indeed Hogan/Maslov), although it did not have its name back then and was not widely known. It could indeed be clarified in the article.

Don't forget that in order to play TF, you need to have great footballers. Professional football in the Netherlands only started in 1956, so obviously it took some time for clubs like Ajax or Feijenoord to have some quality in their teams and be able to play TF. Ajax first reached a European final in 1969, while 1974 was the first time post-WW2 that NED qualified for a WC or EC.

Luckily we don't have to rely on very old people who can barely breathe anymore to know about something from 100 years ago, as we can also rely on stuff like radio/newspaper reports, interviews and other detailed writings from back then.

So, what are we going to do? Tweaking the para in the lede? E.g., if we want to say that the majority view Michels as its originator, we have to find a reliable source for it that states that. Or should we just remove the whole origin part from the lede? I actually don't mind the latter solution. As Hesse and Simpson indeed correctly observed, it's hard to pinpoint the exact origin of football-related stuff, and readers can read TF's history in the body of the article and draw their own conclusions. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 21:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Those accusations are observations of what I'm seeing; you just start editing, even though you know this is controversial and I asked to talk about this matter for several times now.

Apart from that, you are contradicting yourself again. You write: "if we want to say that the majority view Michels as its originator, we have to find a reliable source for it that states that". Fair enough, but at the same time you write: "I don't have to provide all available sources to illustrate a point that there are authors who claim that TF was around earlier than the 1970s". You are asking for general remarks to quote, which is fair enough, but then you're generalizing yourself when it suits your point of view.

This invites problems of interpretations. For instance, you write: "but it's very clear from this part what they mean". You mean, it's very clear to you; i.e. the way you interpret that sentence. I, for one, have a completely different interpretation of that chapter, and in part it departs from the paraphrase that you conveniently ignored completely, namely Michels is considered as the inventor of total football (btw, isn't that a comment about who is generally considered as the inventor?).

To be clear: I don't have a problem with stating that the Austrians or Hungarians, and the entire list (because it seems to me that pretty much everyone invented total football, in that light, you excluded a significant amount of teams). But saying that it started there, and then falsely implying a continuity between those teams and Michels, is in my opinion own research and absolute nonsense. In my view, it has to be made clear that the notion of total football started with Michels, Ajax and the Dutch national team. And then you can say

Also, you have to stop making these kind of comments: "although it did not have its name back then and was not widely known". Seriously, where are you basing it upon that this is the same as what Michels was doing?

PS. I also wonder if you've actually seen those games of the Hungarians? For instance the World Cup of 1954. Some of these games can still be watched. I really can't see much that resembles the way the Dutch played in 1974. Where is the high pressing? Where are the outfield players interchanging position? Where is the sweeper keeper? 213.124.169.240 (talk) 13:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

An excerpt from David Winner's Brilliant Orange: "So who invented Total Football? There are conflicting claims. Some credit Cruyff; others say it was Michels. Others still say it was Michels’s relaxed successor, Stefan Kovacs, the coach who gave control to the players. Hulshoff says the players invented Total Football and then ‘ a lot of other people made theories about it’. Ruud Krol takes the opposite view. ‘Michels invented this system, of course. Not the players. Every year he built it. Every year he was looking for the players he could use in creating that system, looking for a new dimension, a better quality. Every year Michels was looking until he found the perfect team and the perfect style.’ Bobby Haarms says the creation of Total Football was a joint effort. ‘It was an ideal mix of talents and intelligence and world-class players. Everyone was tactically and technically very strong. In training they were always inventing things, trying tricks on each other. Cruyff was a big influence, especially as he grew older and talked more and more about tactics with the other players. But Michels was the general who pulled it together. You could say it was Michels and Cruyff.’ Valibor Vasovichas a different opinion again: ‘Everybody is mistaken who says that Total Football started with Kovacs. Kovacs had nothing to do with it. He took over a very good team, the champions of Europe, and just continued this way of playing. No, Michels was the architect of this football. And I helped him the most."

An excerpt from Legacies of Great Men in World Soccer: Heroes, Icons, Legendsbooks by Kausik Bandyopadhyay: The beginnings of ‘Total Football’ - Dutch soccer in the 1970s. In the 1970s, the Dutch shocked the world by introducing the ideal of ‘Total Football’. The concept of total football was developed and pioneered by two fo the most successful professional football teams in the Netherlands - club teams Feyenoord Rotterdam and AFC Ajax of Amsterdam. Yet, it is still unclear exactly who should be given the credit for inventing total football. Winner describes how Ajax had exhibited ‘intelligent attacking football’ since the First World War, traits that were foundational for total football. Others believe that total football was invented by legendary coach Rinus Michels. (…) If Michels is credited as the genius who created the concept of total football, the player who was the exemplar of how the concept should be implemented on the pitch was superstar Johan Cruyff.

An excerpt from Total Football - A graphic history of the world's most iconic tactic by Sanjeev Shetty: In the mid-1960s, a man called Rinus Michels took over as manager at Ajax Amsterdam, where he set about instilling a new philosophy of 'total' football that has since had a huge influence on many other ways of playing the game.

An excerpt from An illustrated history of football: "Total Football was Rinus Michels' gift to the world; a tactical system that essentially boiled down to a team achieving a higher state of consciousness whereby each player in a team is fit enough and skilled enough to fill the space vacated by a teammate.

An excerpt from The Cambridge Companion to Football: "He was absolutely devoted to his mentor Rinus Michels concept of 'total football'; an innovative system where players were not restricted to specific tactical duties."

I already gave you the article of Encyclopedia Britannica. My question: does this really have the same status as a random article from the NY Times or The Guardian? 213.124.169.240 (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"the majority view Michels as its originator" - I meant that it would be sufficient to add a reliable ref from somewhere that contains a quote like "Michels is by many seen as the creator of TF" (or similar). I don't think it's necessary to add more refs for Michels himself as Britannica is sufficient. It's just for the part about "majority" that needs to be ref'ed (otherwise it's borderline WP:OR).

I agree the last para of the lede can be improved. We don't need to list every team mentioned in the body of the article, however, as that would be overkill. How about something like: "Manager Rinus Michels is often credited with introducing this system during the 1970s,[ref needed about often/majority] at Dutch club Ajax and the Netherlands national football team.[Britannica] Can be extended with mentioning Ajax's hattrick of ECs and NED being runners-up in 1974. However, some authors credit teams such as the Austrian Wunderteam of the 1930s or the Golden Team of Hungary of the 1950s for having played a style what later became known as Total Football"[1][2] Both teams were influenced by Jimmy Hogan, who was in turn influenced by the Scottish combination game.[3][4][5] Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 18:03, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that you present the information as if Total Football was already a formal tactic even with Austrian Wunderteam and the Golden Team, that's in my opinion complete nonsense. It seems like you think Total Football is one concept that has been around since the time of Jimmy Hogan and before. I dispute that, and the majority sources underscore that.

The way you operate is completely weird. You seem to think that if you have only one source claiming the opposite, that it is an equal weight to all the sources in many books who are stating the contrary. Because let's face it, what do you have? As far as I can see only one newspaper article from the NY Times. Is that the same as all those books who are claiming the opposite?

With regard to your demand. Apart from the fact that Who invented the stepover more or less gives the claim that the general view is that Michels is the inventor, you won't quickly find a source that makes a claim like 'Michels is generally viewed as...', because it is completely obvious; no one else is generally viewed as the creator, because he is the creator of Total Football; no one was talking about Total Football until he coached those teams. 213.124.169.240 (talk) 12:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

With regard to your proposal, I don't think it's bad at all, although I would phase the sentence like: "Manager Rinus Michels is generally credited with introducing this system during the 1970s". With regard to the citations, I would avoid newspaper articles, because they are generally unreliable (anything can write everything without much control or fact check). Use therefore books for references. Then: "However, some authors credit teams such as the Austrian Wunderteam of the 1930s or the Golden Team of Hungary of the 1950s for having played a style what later became known as Total Football" is fine with me, but I would say something like that the style of Total Football of Michels had similarities with previous styles. And then you can reference Jimmy Hogan and many more (why only stick to Jimmy Hogan? the majority sources don't talk about him at all, and certainly not with regard to Michels, in that light it's more the England team of 1966). 213.124.169.240 (talk) 12:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I would also make clear that there is not only dispute with regard to its origins, but also with regard to who took credit for the playing style in the 70s. E.g. take the book by Winner, there is - as we know - dispute over who was more important, Kovacs, Cruyff, Michels, the players etc. 213.124.169.240 (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

From the book Planet Football by Andrew Godsell: "Over the next few years, Michels led Ajax to a series of domestic honors. He imposed strong discipline within the club, earning the nickname “Iron Rinus”, but encouraged the players to express themselves on the field. Michels stands as one of the most influential managers in the history of football, being generally regarded as the inventor of “Total Football”. (Page 40).213.124.169.240 (talk) 13:21, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Another thing that irritates me about the current article, is the term "development". This is in my opinion completely unjustified, as it first of all implies a finality that is hard, if not impossible, to prove, and secondly it implies that there is a development at all; i.e. that there is a continuity. 213.124.169.240 (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Aside from the NY Times and Who Invented the Stepover, one of the sources which can also be added for Austria: "This style of play [Total Football], it could be argued, had its roots in the Austrian national team of 1930. Manager Hugo Meisl had been influenced by Jimmy Hogan, one of the early pioneers of the game on mainland Europe." (Fierce Genius: Cruyff’s Year at Feyenoord, Bollen, 2021, p. 145). For Hungary: "He [Sebes] advocated what he referred to as socialist football, an early version of Total Football." (In the Shadow of Totalitarism: Sport and the Olympic Movement in the "Visegrád Countries" 1945-1989, Waic, 2015, p. 241). I don't mind replacing the NY Times ref with these two books.

So, the new paragraph will look like this? - Manager Rinus Michels is generally credited with introducing this system during the 1970s,[Godsell] at Dutch club Ajax and the Netherlands national football team.[Britannica] However, some authors credit teams such as the Austrian Wunderteam of the 1930s or the Golden Team of Hungary of the 1950s for having played a style what later became known as Total Football.[1][Bollen][Waic] Both teams were influenced by Jimmy Hogan, who was in turn influenced by the Scottish combination game.[3][4][5]

"Such as" implies the Austrians and Hungarians weren't the only ones. As this is for the lede, it should be a canned summary, so I don't believe we need to mention every other team provided in the body of the article (both Austria and Hungary also seem to be the most frequently mentioned in the refs).

With these changes made to the paragraph and the removal of "early developments" from the heading, I guess we're done? Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 21:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Almost, because "had its roots", "influenced by" and "early version", is of course not the same as "for having played a style what later became known as Total Football" (which suggest the styles are identical). I think it's important to make clear that this style is not the same, but had similarities. Apart from that I can agree with your proposal. I will make some edits here and there as well, if you don't agree with them, come back here or let me know in another way (what surprises me for instance, is that relatively few teams who played in a similar style are mentioned, whilst Who invented the stopover mentions a whole bunch (including some Argentinian team). Lastly, why aren't the first paragraphs sourced? There are so many books who go into detail with regard to the tactics; for instance, there's nothing in the lead about high pressing (one of the most essential aspects of Total Football!) and the sweeper keeper. I recently read an article by Nico Scheepmaker who already in 1974 emphasized the revolutionary role of the goalkeeper in this system. 213.124.169.240 (talk) 12:11, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay, great. Both books can be replaced by Contested Fields: A Global History of Modern Football (McDougall, 2020) – "And it was Meisl's Wunderteam that developed a revolutionary playing style, the kind of fluid, close passing associated later associated with Hungary's "golden squad" and Dutch "total football"." (p. 113)

" … for having played a style what later became known as Total Football" can also be replaced with " … for having played in a similar style to Total Football".

If you give the nod, I will change the last paragraph. (The first two paragraphs can indeed be expanded as it looks a bit flat at the moment.) Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 20:58, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Sounds all good! I think we are in agreement then... 213.124.169.240 (talk) 20:06, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Great! I changed the third para and the heading to something more neutral. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 13:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)