Talk:Bellevue West High School

This article was nominated for deletion on March 4, 2005. The result of the discussion was no consensus (however, on the basis of the large number of "delete" votes, the closing admin declared an intention to merge & redirect).

This article was nominated for deletion on May 25, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

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VfD outcome

On 4 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Bellevue West High School for a record of the discussion. The outcome, according to User:Rossami was 18 clear delete votes, 12 clear keep votes (with 3 keep votes discounted) and 2 merge votes. There was no clear consensus.

It should be noted that the VfD outcome statement above has been edited by User:GRider. Here is the VfD discussion summary by User:Rossami:

The result of the debate was ambiguous. I count 18 clear "delete" votes, 12 clear "keep" votes (2 anons and 1 probable troll discounted) and 2 "merge" votes. While there is a clear majority to delete, there is not the overwhelming concensus necessary for deletion. The decision defaults to keep in some form.

Noting both the majority to delete, the current state of the article and the fact that "redirects" do not destroy history, I am going to be bold and merge and redirect this article. Rossami (talk) 05:49, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I hope that sheds some light. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 20:27, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for reposting the outcome statement in its entirety. So that there is no confusion, it should be duly noted that I did not remove anything from the original statement on this page (Talk:Bellevue West High School), but appended the following verbiage: "The outcome, according to User:Rossami was 18 clear delete votes, 12 clear keep votes (with 3 keep votes discounted) and 2 merge votes. There was no clear consensus." --GRider\^talk 20:40, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Organic expansion

If making valid contributions to an article is considered to be "trolling" when there was clearly no consensus to delete or merge, by all means, please take this matter to RfC. --GRider\^talk 19:01, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have, as I sincerely hope you are already aware, as it appears in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/GRider2. —Korath (Talk) 20:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Here is a diff between the version immediately prior to VfD and its current form. I see no additional encyclopedia-worthy detail (as evidenced by the red links), merely filler material. —Korath (Talk) 21:05, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, it was in exceedingly bad form to falsify your timestamp above. [1] —Korath (Talk) 21:15, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Fourty-three percent of those who participated in this VfD all agreed that what was in the article, before I began expanding it, was already notable. Additional detail, such as school color, founding date, and administrative staff is without question worthy of note. As for the allegation of a falsified timestamp; Wikipedia is inherently quirky. Please try to avoid making personal attacks. --GRider\^talk 22:39, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Outside opinion

GRider asked me to look at this article.

In terms of policy, there was no clear consensus to delete the article. The admin who deleted it did not act wrongly however, it was a judgment call, and there is no policy that says that once a non-frivilous article is deleted, an article of the same name can't be reposted with significant new material. Remember, there is a stated policy on Wikipedia not to delete if their is any doubt.

As to the article as it stands. it is pretty thin. I think GRider should have a reasonable opportunity to bring it up to a state where it tells us more than that the school is there and simple mundane details. Is the school significant in teaching any of its majors? Does it have special ed courses of significance? And so on. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 20:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, the admin who ignored the established procedural standards, which is to keep with such a vote, did act wrongly. Admins don't have the authority to delete articles at will. --Zero 12:20, 26 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, GRider was a sockpuppet created to vote keep on articles, wasn't he? That being the case, shouldn't the vote be re-counted? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:29, 26 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

GRider, a sockpuppet? That's a very strong accusation you've made, and I don't see our friendly green pseudo-mascot emblazoned on his User page... Master Thief Garrett^Talk 18:14, 26 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I confused his case with another. GRider used a number of sockpuppets to vote "Keep" on articles, but he was not one himself. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:21, 26 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to Zero, Rossami did nothing wrong in being bold, and he did not delete the article--indeed he made it plain that his motive was to try to satisfy the majority opinion while not running the chance of losing information (which under GFDL includes editing history).

In reply to Jayjg, I think User:Rossami said that he discounted "2 anons and 1 probable troll" and ended up with 12 keeps and 18 deletes. Even if Rossami did count GRider's vote, this leaves 11 keeps and 18 deletes, which doesn't even satisfy a generous standard of 2/3 for rough consensus. In practice many of us would want considerably more than 2/3 in favor of deletion before we deleted any article on VfD. But I don't want to pre-empt Rossami, he may have an entirely different take on the matter. Why don't you contact him? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:46, 26 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Redirection

Please stop redirecting this article, it is effectively deleting content contrary to the VfD decision that found there was no consensus to the delete the article. If you strongly feel the content should be expunged from Wikipedia there is no rule against relisting the page on VfD. - SimonP 16:04, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

As the article is now, it doesn't seem to me to be worthy of reinstatement. Can't the advocates of keeping it as a separate article do something to make the article more useful and worthwhile? There is a prejudice in Wikipedia against including high schools or below unless there is something that sets them apart from the tens of thousands of other high schools. Can we do better than the name of the principal and the majors that are like the majors of any other high school? We don't even have the school's address. Notable alumni: "Mr. Biggs" of one of how many "KISS-FMs" across the U.S.? We don't have Mr. Biggs' real name, when he graduated and why he is notable other than being a disk jockey. Compare with Erasmus Hall High School. I don't mean to make people who go to the high school feel bad, but if you can't dig up more than you have, how can you expect the article to stay? -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 16:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article is not great, but it is more useful to an interested reader than a redirect to a page that has nothing on the school. Personally I don't have access to the resources to improve this article. When I write articles on high schools most of my information comes from newspaper archives, which are generally subscription services. I have access to pretty much all the Canadian sources, but not U.S. ones. If anyone has access to the Omaha World-Herald archives I'm sure they could create a decent page. Anyone from the area could also probably find material at their local library. - SimonP 17:00, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

I am okay with you contesting the decision to redirect the article but it is not appropriate to say that the redirect was in any way "contrary to the VfD decision". Redirects do not destroy content. Content is preserved in the page history. The fact that the decision defaulted to "keep" says nothing about which form of "keep" is best for this particular article. Redirect is a form of keep. We do not ask VfD voters to explicitly vote between "keep as is" or "keep as modified". Some voters volunteer that information but it's not a requirement and, as such, should be used very cautiously when cited outside the strict context of the specific VfD discussion. Rossami (talk) 17:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A redirect and merge is a form of keep, redirecting to an article but adding none of the content is a form of deletion. - SimonP 20:41, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

At the time the re-direct was done, the information in the article was merged. Subsequent to that people undid the re-direct and added to this article, rather than putting new information in the re-direct article as they should have. If it's a form of deletion, it's a self-inflicted one. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:19, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A page should not be redirected if there is no clear consensus to do so. Either it should be kept (with the redirect votes counted as keep votes) or deleted (if there is a consensus to delete). – ugen64 02:18, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There was a clear consensus to remove the information from here; 20 votes to 12. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:38, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There was a clear majority not a clear consensus, it generally takes at least a two thirds majority to remove content. - SimonP 02:48, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Protected

I'm protecting this (on m:The Wrong Version, obviously!) because this edit war is silly. There's obviously more information on this article than can be crammed into the Bellevue article, so don't even try to justify it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:06, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

VfDs and results

To save confusion I'm listing the two VfDs for this article here:

First VfD, listed by Korath, 12:42, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC). Result was merge and redirect
Second VfD, listed by Korath, 07:13, May 25, 2005 (UTC) but did not appear on VfD until 00:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC). Result was keep.[reply]

There were more than twice as many keep votes as delete votes in the second VfD. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 00:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Natural progress

This article is an excellent example of what can happen when an article is given the opportunity for organic growth. Look how it has expanded one edit prior to the first time it was nominated for deletion. Bahn Mi 07:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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