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J. Fred Muggs

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Not encyclopedic, not notable. We shouldn't open the door to every public-relations gimmick thought up to brand a corporate entity or propaganda concept into our minds. Some few very successful ones conceivably (Smokey the Bear, the Budweiser Clydesdales), but this one is no winner. — Bill 23:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • Disagree. Keep. Pity there isn't enough information on there about the various chimps who have played him or how it came to start but it is a worthy subject for a short article. Dbiv 23:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. J. Fred Muggs is poorly described in this article, but was not just some public-relations gimmick; he was an extremely successful public relations gimmick on an epochal TV show. Fred was news wherever he went. Izvestia described him as "A symbol of the American way of life." Fred was more responsible for the success of the "Today Show" than Dave Garroway was. --jpgordon {gab} 23:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think this is just a question of the age of the reader. J. Fred Muggs was originally a live chimpanzee who appeared regularly on the Today Show in the days when it was hosted by (let's see whether this turns out to be a red link or not) Dave Garroway. A notable animal (or animals—Dbiv, you disillusion me) as such things go. I would bet that most who can remember Mickey Mouse Club can probably remember J. Fred Muggs. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 23:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, as a United Kingdom subject no more than being born in 1972 I have little experience of watching said chimp, but then I knew who it was straight away which tells me something about his fame. No information about other chimps which played him but many UK TV animals were replaced with lookalikes; he was certainly played by another chimp in the film 'Quiz Show'. Dbiv 23:35, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • You beat me to it. An interesting example of generational bias. About as notable as any other pop culture reference, just less recent than most. Keep. -- Jmabel|Talk 23:32, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • A single, inaccurate sentence does not an article make. I've made it into a redirect to "Today Show" which should do well until a real article comes along. I've also left the deletion notice intact. BTW, I read that ol' Fred was a nasty little critter. I think I may have that same reference at home. - Lucky 6.9 23:39, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I've rewritten it to tell the truth -- he was a chimp, not a cartoon, and he is no longer with us. I'll add more later (probably tomorrow or this weekend) when I get more time to do some research. RickK 00:00, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
    • Send to Clean Up, even with RickK's work. The figure is notable. At one time, the chimp was the most popular figure on television, but I also think it's better to delete litter than to keep it around only to give users a mistaken impression of what we do here. In this case, it's being repaired, and we ought to let Clean Up add more, if it can. Geogre 00:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Not the most respectable figure in an encyclopedic gallery, but certainly one well known to (yeek) yuppies. Denni☯ 02:51, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
Yuppies my simian tush! J. Fred was targeted directly at the Baby Boomers. jpgordon {gab} 06:01, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What he said. My goodness, what a simpler day it was when a live chimpanzee on TV was a big deal... Of course, it was live TV and perhaps that makes a difference. It is Garroway, not Muggs, who is my idol, though because I visited Rockefeller Center once when I was a kid, and we walked by the glassed-in set of the Today show, and I waved at Dave Garroway and he waved back at me. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 10:45, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. J. Fred is worth an article. Perhaps not as many people can answer "J. Fred who?" as "J. Danforth who?", but I wouldn't lay big money on it. --NathanHawking 03:02, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)

Couldn't have been wronger, could I? Withdraw delete. Though older than most, was not living in the States at the time! Keep. — Bill 12:02, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I believe this is supposed to be the reason why we have VfD. A good example of an article that definitely was appropriate for listing on VfD. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 19:05, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, but I have to wonder if the guy was serious about Garroway drugging the orange juice. I suspect he might have been goofing on the reporter, and maybe we should delete that quotation. JamesMLane 21:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Good point. Continue discussion at Talk:J._Fred_Muggs [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:03, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • What, I should spend my time editing an article about a chimpanzee? You must be joking.  :) JamesMLane 16:25, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • "A chimpanzee?" A chimpanzee? This is J. Fred Muggs we're talking about. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:45, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think the case for notability has been made by the previous comments here and I submit that this should be removed from vfd now. Gamaliel 06:02, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Such shabby treatment of an American TV legend! —tregoweth 05:40, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Comment Something that's gotten lost in this discussion... the original article said that Muggs is "a cartoon mascot for NBC's Today show." Not having watched Today in a long time and not being likely to... anyone know, is this correct or not? It's perfectly possible that there could be a cartoon version of J. Fred Muggs. Is there? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 19:05, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC) Not in obvious evidence on the badly-designed-for-searching Today Show website. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 19:10, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep notable icon of 50s America, referenced in any book about US pop culture at the time as well as any book on the history of US TV.AndyL 23:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • KEEP - Don't you even dare consider deleting this. That would be like deleting the Howdy Doody or Andy Griffith entry. Heck, it was a roll down Nostalgia Lane just to find out that J. Fred Muggs was still kicking it (and not far from my folks in Florida). ExplorerCDT 01:11, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Relax. Look at the version that was initially listed and you will see that the initial listing was perfectly understandable. Bill, who listed initially is already on record above with a keep vote himself. I believe Muggs' place in Wikipedia, as well as history, is fairly secure. Thanks for adding the photos BTW.[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 14:43, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep DCEdwards1966 17:48, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Radman1 14:48, 18 Oct 2004 (PST)
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