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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. This debate is difficult to interpret since there are clear concerns about the article that have been denied rather than addressed. The final comment suggests it may be original research, but opts to keep it: WP:NOR is not negotiable, and you cannot couple it with a recommendation to 'keep'. There's no consensus on what should presently be done with this article, so it isn't deleted. I get the feeling that this AfD should not prejudice a future one, nor any merging/redirection that may result from discussion. -Splashtalk 20:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Korean pride

[edit]

Delete. This article is full of POV and is as pointless as creating articles such as Turkey pride, Greek pride, Japanese pride, Chinese pride. In addition, the main (and really only) contributor is User:Atrahasis, who has made his reasons for creating this page pretty clear on Talk:Hwang Woo-Suk: "This amounts to no less than a tacit desire by the majority of Koreans that they desired glory even if it meant they had to cover up the truth. This is a kind of vanity which Wikipedia defines as "the excessive belief in one's own abilities". At worst it cn also be called a kind ofnarcissism, which Wikipedia defines as "a pattern of thinking and behaving in adolescence and adulthood, which involves infatuation and obsession with one's self to the exclusion of others". Not that self-respect is bad, but as far as Korean pride is concerned, it is a kind of extraverted pride that is not really different than something like white pride which believes in the inherent superiority of oneself or one's race over others. The issue of Korean pride is also a valid complaint by foreigners who deal in the academic and business worlds in Korea." C S (Talk) 21:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chan-Ho, as far as I know it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to make personal observations on the Talk Pages of an article. What you're sying here is that you don't like what I'm saying, which is perfetcly fine, but what you need to do is to come up with logical and relevant reasons that refute my points. --Atrahasis 03:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It is not perfectly acceptable to let your rant on a talk page spill over and become an article, which is what has happened here. Your Korean Pride article is in effect just a continuation of your endless theorizing on the Hwang Woo-Suk talk page. It is, in fact, original research. Your article is not a properly sourced scholarly article fit for an encyclopedia; rather, it is an amalgamation of your theories of "Korean group-think" and "Korean hierarchy", which you use to explain the Hwang situation. --C S (Talk) 08:30, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
A rant maybe to you, probably because you have so far failed to reflect deeply enough on the issues brought up in the article, which is your own personal failing, and not mine. As for the claim that it is "original research", I challenge you to pick out any specific part of it that can't be backed up factually. Korean group-think exists. Korean hierarchy exists. Korean inventions and discoveries exist. Korean pop culture exists. Seoul's economic and cultural dominance in Korea exists. What part of any of this do you have a problem with, other than the general rant that you have made that you don't like it? --Atrahasis 08:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is NOT a racist article. Anyone can check over my user history and see that I have made many and deep contributions on the topics of Korean culture, food, and history, all of them factual and neutral. If anyone calls this article racist, they should stop making the fallacy of such a general comment and precisely point out which part or parts it is that they are referring to. As it now stands, it has a balanced structure, exploring both positive and negative aspects of the very real topic of "Korean pride", which people who have had dealings in Korea and/or with Koreans end up talking about, because it can be a source of consternation for them and at times even ends up affecting international relations. For people who need a reference, there may be comments like these in internet cafes where foreign English teachers in Korea frequently make them, though they may be deleted rather quickly. I suggest people explore such forums to get a taste of what this phenomenon is all about. --Atrahasis 03:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

http://news.naver.com/news/read.php?mode=LSD&office_id=001&article_id=0001175416&section_id=102&menu_id=102

  • Also, take a look at what professors and acadmeics and commentators are saying about Korean Pride...the following is an exceprt from a link on Wikipedia's Hwang Woo-Suk page. --Atrahasis 04:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The final domino to fall will be "Korean Pride," when Koreans fully confront Hwang's fraud.

But in the words of Joseph Steinberg, "South Koreans have to learn to . . . replace pride . . . [with] confidence. "

How do they do that? Cho Se-mi suggests that (among other things) Koreans should "pursue excellence." I'd add that they should strive to be honest in, e.g., their pursuit of a university degree, where honesty would entail actually doing the work required rather than plagiarizing so much. The problem lies not just in academics, of course, but also in the Korean business world, whose level of dishonesty foreigners constantly complain about.

I also think that Korea needs to develop a culture of discussion, and that would entail a flattening of the hierarchical social system to enable juniors to openly question their seniors.

But that will take a while.

posted by Horace Jeffery Hodges

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

  • This topic may be controversial but strictly speaking it is no more "racist" than Wikipedia's article on race and intelligence for example. Moreover, people who try to compare the inherent national pride of X country with Korean pride are making a generalization which is inherently illogical. What this article does is try to point out the special characteristics of a phenomenon that both Koreans and foreigners consistently refer to and has big impacts on Korean society, and to delete it would mean the censors win, which is against the spirit of wiki as well as free and progressive thinking for that matter. Moreover, denying the existence of the phenomenon does not do the Korean people any good either, because the next step in the evolution of Korean consciousness and society is to confront this problem and discuss it and perhaps even find ways to deal with it, which presumably would end up with the betterment of all. It has especially come to the forefront because of the Hwang affair, a situation (if you think about it deeply) many say was brought about by Korean pride on the part of Hwang (his desire to make Korea a research hub and also Nobel Prize considerations) and even him using it to keep all of his underlings silent. Remember, it was the head of the Mizmedi hospital, Roh Sung-Il, who first blew the whistle, and not any of Hwang's underlings. In a free and open society, for soemthing like this you would think there would have been a whistle-blower from within the research team ranks, at least anonymously. And yet there wasn't. The interesting question is, what kind of a hold does one have to have on his subordinates to commit such a fraud? There is the hierarchical power structure to be sure, but motivations of national pride had to have come into play as well. This is why discussions of Hwang will inevitably bring up the issue of Korean pride, which makes the topic not only real but also relevant these days. It is only logical to begin discussing it. --Atrahasis 06:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I say it should be Kept for now. If it is to be preserved as its own page, more external links (such as the ones you, Atrahasis, just mentioned) should be added. Or could it possibly be put as part of a different Asian Pride article? The current Asian Pride article seems more focused on Asian-American culture. Perhaps a broader focus or seperate article could be established, like Asian Pride(global), or something? --Mysterius 24 December 2005
Thank you, and the probelm with finding links for this kind of thing is that it's not something that English speakers will speak about often with any great depth of knowledge because it's probably a tad politically incorrect to do so and can be miscontrued as some kind of hate ranting. Thanks for pointing out the Asian pride link, this lends quite a bit of support to the existence and nature of the topic at hand. --Atrahasis 08:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Yeah keep the article but merge it with Korean Nationalism wiki page ##
  • I think this article should be kept. I think that Korean pride

is very unique in its nature and this acknowledged by quite a few koreans I know. I think the article is reasonably balanced but needs cleaning up. --nzfooty 26 December 2005

I totally agree, more people should consider ways to add to the article. --Atrahasis 08:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the same as Korean nationalism, because it's possible to not really care about the country of Korea per se but at the same time have pride in being Korean or thinking that Koreans are superior in some way. --Atrahasis 08:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. "Korean Nationalism" and "Korean Pride" are two different ideas. For example, in many Chinatown, Chinese who does not have Chinese nationality and does not endorse the current Chinese government still have high regards in the culture he or she passes down. I don't think this is "nationalism" but "pride". Right now, most Koreans do live in Korea, but for those living outside and not having Korean nationality, is it improbable for them to not to have the same mentality? If Korean immediately becomes "un-Korean" once he or she loses nationality and leaves Korea, then we have to argue whether the only thing binding them together is "nationalism" and that Korean entirely lacks "pride". Certainly Korean has to have both "nationalism" and "pride" and both has to be distinct. -- Revth 05:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I totally agree, thanks for picking up on that. --Atrahasis 08:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Even when this looks like a clear original research to me, I'm casting my vote to keep it for political reasons. Why, Chanho Suk listed this article on AFD for political reasons to start with -_- Alright everyone, let's start pulling scholarly references and all that. I wish I was still in college to have access to journal databases.. --Yonghokim 05:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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