Talk:Tori Amos

Note about "Cherokee" genealogy

I would like to note that it has been an open secret for many years that Tori Amos has no Cherokee ancestry, especially since Amos family trees have been popping up online in recent years. These are NOT reliable sources and cannot be used in the article, but they may be of interest to those interested in the Amos family history. You can read more here, here, and here. Perhaps you can do your own research and maybe find something interesting. Tori Amos has helpfully mentioned the names of many of the ancestors listed on those genealogy pages in her memoirs and interviews. I will add a quote from Ethnicelebs that alleges that the ancestors she claims were "Cherokee" are listed as "white" on the US census, a legal impossibility for actual Cherokee people. If anyone has an RS containing that census information, that would be great. Quote:

"Tori has stated that both of her maternal grandparents had a “full-blooded Cherokee” Native American grandparent of their own (i.e. Tori has stated that two of her maternal great-great-grandparents were Cherokee). It is not clear if there is any genealogical evidence that Tori has Cherokee Native American ancestry.

The first of Tori’s great-great-grandparents cited as Cherokee was a woman named Margaret Loraine Little. Margaret is listed as “White” on United States Censuses. Margaret’s mother’s name is sometimes cited as Elizabeth J. McAllister.

The second of Tori’s great-great-grandparents cited as Cherokee was a man named John Akins. John’s son, Tori’s great-grandfather, John Calhoun Akins, is listed as “White” on United States Censuses."

And on that note. Today is Elders Day, an Eastern Band Cherokee holiday celebrated each year in late August. Tribal offices are closed today so workers can take time off to honor those who came before them. Real, actual people. Happy Elders Day! Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 14:40, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. Thank you! (mentally translate into the Indigenous language of your preference!) Because you can't source a negative, sometimes there are statements we can't source to RS standards, even though everyone who's looked into it knows the truth. Native people and relatives in Indian Country usually spot pretendians pretty quickly, and it gets frustrating seeing the same irrelevant arguments from credulous fans. Again, it's why we wrote WP:NDNID - non-Natives tend to think issues of Native identity are murky and complicated, when, really, they are not. With one phone call to actual Cherokee healers (who were on the Boundary during the time Amos's sister claims she was learning from the traditional healers there) I was able to confirm that she's not telling the truth. They didn't train her. They don't know her. With one call or email people have confirmed there are no people with Amos's family names on any of the rolls. Cherokee did not "hide out" from the census. Actual Cherokee people were hunted down and arrested if they tried that. But look and see, the actual ancestors Amos names are on the census, and they are all white people. Pretendians make their images and money by relying on the confusion, ignorance, and prejudices of observers who they assume will never talk to Natives. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

So, genealogy sites that are unsourced cannot be used as WP:RS. BUT, these are sourced with official documents and the records are online. We have a handy WP template for citing the US census, which I have used. The "tomahawk wielding grammaw" is in all the United States census records as white. As is her husband. BTW, Indians weren't allowed to get married by mainstream laws at that point, either, and there are marriage records, as well. So, we now have a whole bunch of sources from Amos herself that these are her ancestors, backed up with a bunch of official government documentation, in a variety of sources, that these people are all white. Done. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 01:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Glad that this is done. If you were interested, here's one more link of Amos making further heritage claims. About 4 minutes in she says her "mother's clan" is the Blue Clan and that she's been involved with the Indian Health Service since getting a scholarship for medical school in 1978. The rest is mostly nattering about Mother Earth and high cheekbones and a bunch of other cliche gibberish. Out of curiosity, I'm going to try to search the Georgia Land Lotteries to see if any of their ancestors pop up. Little Margaret was born in Georgia. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Margaret Little's father and brother were both named William. There is a William Little, Sr. of Putnam listed on the 1832 Georgia Land Lottery, a possible match. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I am interested to see if the claims about her ancestors having never enslaved anyone hold up to scrutiny. So much of what we've found is a complete reversal. The Confederates "just defending 'our' land"/"self defense" thing is the exact pattern we see with so many white southerners claiming Cherokee. The white Confederates now claiming to have been the oppressed people is actually a lot like the Indianer German hobbyists and their "grandfather history dilemma" processing of guilt post-WWII. Similar psychology, imo. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:29, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan Tori Amos has said that Margaret Little "married a plantation owner where she was a surrogate slave", whatever that means. But that is an admission that Margaret Little's husband, Calvin Harper Rice, was the owner of a slave plantation. Knowing what we know about the history of white women slave owners, I think it may be fair to describe Margaret Little as a slave owner herself. It's more likely that great-great-MeeMaw was wielding a whip than a tomahawk. As I was typing I also saw that in Piece by Piece she says that Margaret Little worked on a "large farm" (quite a euphemism!) in North Georgia as an indentured servant, where she caught the eye of the plantation owner, a man 20 years older than her. She wasn't a "slave", she was a poor young woman who married up. Amos could plainly discuss these sorts of inequities of gender and class, but I guess that's too pedestrian and she finds slavery and genocide more exciting. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 08:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I live in the area mentioned and I will say the Reserve/reservation reference is not accurate, it is a reservation. As for her heritage anything is possible. All the surnames she mentions are all local names here. Most of them are enrolled members . But there is no telling her heritage since the Cherokees were known for taking slaves; white settler slaves, and trading them. There is just to much history to sift through to find any answers. But it would not surprise me if she was. I work with tribe members daily and they all look completely different, so just based on her more english/Scottish esthetic you cannot rule her out because the Scottish immigrants all settled here in these mountains too Gimli001 (talk) 02:41, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Genealogy sites that provide government records lookups still fall under the WP:BLPPRIMARY prohibition and should not be used in this article for any assertions in this article, even the ones about her dead relatives. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)